D
Deleted member 22389
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It's a weak argument from the remain side. They just love to peddle this idea that everyone in the EU follows suit, it's all a load bollox and absolutely no reason for us to stay in.
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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
- Start date
It's a weak argument from the remain side. They just love to peddle this idea that everyone in the EU follows suit, it's all a load bollox and absolutely no reason for us to stay in.
Lincoln Imp
Well-known member
- Feb 2, 2009
- 5,964
And now my apologies for butting in. I don't criticise what you say or doubt it in any way but surely, if the low grade jerry builders you describe are active then all the criticism rests with the penny pinchers who choose to employ them in order to get work and/or increase profits at the expense of the end customer rather than FOM? Perhaps the regulations aren't tough enough but you will know more about this than I do.
Publius Ovidius
Well-known member
Quite an interesting thing on the way down to Somerset yesterday. I couldn't believe how many people had covered up the EU flag on their number plates.
My mum who lives down there and who is a Labour Party member and attends local meetings etc, was saying that down that way the feedback that they have received was that people were very much the little englander mentality and were fed up with Europe "dictating" to the uk...which is fair enough, but where people were concerned regarding support for corbyn was this business about nationalising utilities, especially as Hinckley point is being built by EDF with some Chinese money. If they are faced with a continued shitehouse Tory government or a party that would lead to massive job losses in that area if the French pulled out, or were kicked out, it is the devil you know..
Interestingly according to her and the LP analysis, the north is exactly the opposite, in that the vote was more an anti establishment vote.
I never had my mum as a rabid red though...but all she watches is RT.
My mum who lives down there and who is a Labour Party member and attends local meetings etc, was saying that down that way the feedback that they have received was that people were very much the little englander mentality and were fed up with Europe "dictating" to the uk...which is fair enough, but where people were concerned regarding support for corbyn was this business about nationalising utilities, especially as Hinckley point is being built by EDF with some Chinese money. If they are faced with a continued shitehouse Tory government or a party that would lead to massive job losses in that area if the French pulled out, or were kicked out, it is the devil you know..
Interestingly according to her and the LP analysis, the north is exactly the opposite, in that the vote was more an anti establishment vote.
I never had my mum as a rabid red though...but all she watches is RT.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
Not necessarily my employer. It's other trades I was commenting about.
Sure. But my point is still holds.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
Exactly that. However it's these penny pitchers that fanfare the workers from the EU. Telling everyone that will listen that we can't do without them. When all the while the main reason they use them is because they can pay them lower wages.
But you have said the issue is with their lack of qualifications. I do not see what the willingness of employers to employ people who are not up to the requirements for the job has to do with the EU.
brighton bluenose
Well-known member
Perhaps his comment about qualifications was a little misplaced but the fact, as confirmed by the recent Migration Advisory Committe, is that in lower skilled jobs such as many of those in the construction industry EU migration has undercut wages and helped to drive them down.
In a wider context that report also states that in the economy generally EU migration, and inter alia, immigration generally hasn't led to reduced wage levels - what it doesn't say though, and as I suspect, is that UK wage levels have been HELD BACK due to both EU and non-EU immigration over the last decade.
After all it is not unreasonable to question whether just maybe 2.5million or more (nett) new arrivals have helped to keep wages at 2008 levels.
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[MENTION=17469]melias shoes[/MENTION] very clearly stated his issue was not with foreigners but with unqualified employees. So I disagree his comments were misplaced.
I have always supported, respected and often admired (most) trades and professions and I am no supporter of wage races-to-the-bottom. And if wages are an issue there are other ways of controlling them without resorting to kicking out foreigners e.g. enforce a standard set of qualifications, enforce a minimum living and respectful wage, have a union etc. If there’s a minimum and respectful wage and a set of qualifications then undercutting salary and unqualified people are removed from job competition; good native Brits will surely then be favoured over others but it still leaves the door open for the very best of the EU.
Garry Nelson's teacher
Well-known member
That's a fair question so Ill give you an honest answer: 'no'. I'm not sure this invalidates its findings though. My track record on such matters isn't the worst: I've actually read the ERG stuff and that of Patrick Minford (who I'm sure you know is the main thinker behind the ERG's stance). I've also posted stuff from the University of Sussex's Trade Observatory and quite a bit of other empirically based material. One question I keep coming back to is to ask Brexiteers to give any sort of rationale/defence of the whole project in terms of its economic impact and while I've hit this ball over the other side of the net it's never yet been returned with any backing grounded in any credible economic analysis. Not once.
And if you read my posting properly I was only saying that the findings of this report were more convincing than Boris's demented meanderings, so I set the bar very low indeed.
There's hardly a day that goes by when we don't get another addition to the mountain of data, forecasts, warnings that Brexit (particularly a no-deal one) will make us 'all' poorer^. The report that I cited actually argues that it's already done so. I think the burden is on our Brexiteer friends to pick apart the assumptions on which the model is based. Or simply find one shred of credible evidence that Brexit will work. Happy hunting chaps!
So I'm more than happy to enter into this side of the debate and would welcome it. I'd even welcome being proved wrong if it mean good news for the UK. Just give us some!
*to take just one recent example: last week the Institute of Purchasing and Supply's analysis from a member survey on the implication for a no-deal Brexit projected total chaos
- Jul 10, 2003
- 25,866
Oh, you're back again.
It's just that when you were telling everyone about your preference for 'no deal' . you seem to have missed my question
Maybe now I've highlighted it, you could answer
A clue - (It's USA, Brazil and New Zealand who were the first to raise issues within the first week of submitting our schedules and quotas)
- Jul 10, 2003
- 25,866
Maybe you should have said that you have an issue with the quality of the people your employers employ rather than
It could easily be interpreted a different way to the way that you obviously meant
Don't know what it's got to do with the EU though
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- Jul 10, 2003
- 25,866
I'm still surprised (although I really shouldn't be
) at the number of leavers who are demanding 'No deal' without the slightest idea what it means. I can see a few tantrums when it finally dawns (if, indeed it ever does) what 'no deal' actually means. The idea that negotiating with USA, Russia, Brazil and India will be easier than that beastly EU is hilarious.
Who is going to break it to them that we also have negotiate with the EU as WTO members
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
It has everything to do with the EU. With freedom of movement they're able to travel to any country within the EU. Regardless of ability.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
Maybe you should have said that you have an issue with the quality of the people your employers employ rather than
It could easily be interpreted a different way to the way that you obviously meant
Stop parroting Herr Tubthumper. It's not my employer if you read other post's you would realise this. It's other trades. No it couldn't be interpreted in a different way only if you choose too. Which you did.
It's got everything to do with the EU. Freedom of movement allows to travel within the EU.
I understand they can move. But your issue is with them being employed by construction companies without the necessary qualifications and/or skills. Their employment, and the choice of employing unqualified staff, lies purely and squarely with the company in question; it has nothing to do with the EU.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 25,866
I assume your employers are just sub contractors like everyone else. But then surely if we weren't in the EU your employers (and all the other sub-contractors) will just employ useless people from the UK if they are cheap enough ......
Oh...sorry
Anyway, back to getting out of the EU with the 'no deal' that you believe we should now go for.
What do you think we should do about the USA, New Zealand and Brazil turning down our WTO submission based on the EU quotas within the first week?
And where, how and who will collect and implement these tariffs and rules that we need to adopt (if we get agreement) ?
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Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
Hunt has put his foot in it tonight with his comments about the EU being like the USSR, no better a diplomat than Johnson was
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
I assume your employers are just sub contractors like everyone else. But then surely your employers (and all the other sub-contractors) will just employ useless people from the UK if they are cheap enough ......
Oh...
Anyway, back to the 'no deal' that you think we should go for.
What do you think we should do about the USA, New Zealand and Brazil turning down our WTO submission based on the EU quotas within the first week?
Since the referendum what I can tell you there seems to be a small increase of British youngsters being given a chance. It's only what I've witnessed and isn't an official statistic. One of which is my son whom has qualified as an electrician. Hardly useless . Also a couple of young lads have been given a chance to learn bricklaying and carve out a career. So all good news .
- Jul 10, 2003
- 25,866
I'm genuinely pleased. Always good to see youngsters given an opportunity and taking advantage of it
So, as you are advocating 'no deal' what do you think we should do about the USA, New Zealand and Brazil turning down our WTO submission based on the EU quotas within the first week?
And where, how and who will collect and implement these tariffs and rules that we need to adopt (if we get agreement) ?