[Politics] May 2021 local elections and Hartlepool by-election

zefarelly · May 8, 2021

Hastings gull said:
Please avoid real life in your posts =this is not what the punters wnat to read/believe.

different industries, engineering, with critical/specific materials is not the same. As for construction, we've been renovating out house, everythings been slow and more expensive. It's not just brexit, obviously, but it has had a negative efffect. And the classic is buying myself a new welder . . . . Had to buy it from Poland . . . . UK distributor no longer capable/prepared to stock/supply . . . . .For the hard of hearing, something swift and seamless became slow and had added complexity/cost. Win/win? :dunce:

Anyway, no point going there really, some of us are blue stripes, some of us the white . .at least we have something in common.

Eeyore · May 8, 2021

beorhthelm said:
no vote is ever wasted. its someone registering their preference and that being counted. they dont have to vote for the elected representative, they've won by simply casting their vote.

A vote in a national election is wasted if cast in a constituency that a candidate cannot win in. Under PR every vote matters.

The most classic example of this in the UK was the 1951 election. Labour polled more votes than the Tories yet Churchill won a 20 seat majority.

So that was not a reflection of the 'will of the people'.

It's like Fulham finishing a point above Albion at the end of the season and being relegated because Albion won more matches.

beorhthelm · May 8, 2021

Brighton Lines said:
A vote in a national election is wasted if cast in a constituency that a candidate cannot win in. Under PR every vote matters.

this view is saddening, its not enough to vote, it has to "win" to matter.

clapham_gull · May 8, 2021

beorhthelm said:
no vote is ever wasted. its someone registering their preference and that being counted. they dont have to vote for the elected representative, they've won by simply casting their vote.

Well it's somewhat of a philosophical argument, but under the FPTP system if you vote for the loser I believe your vote is wasted. As are any other votes for the winner beyond the one vote they needed to beat the person in second. You could get 44% or 70% but it makes no difference to the mandate.

I like the second choice system we have for London Mayor.

clapham_gull · May 8, 2021

Closer than the polls suggested, but Khan holds London.

Would have been interesting if the Conservative party had bothered to put their weight behind their candidate...

... but they didn't.

Bry Nylon · May 8, 2021

I think FPTP should remain to elect MPs to enable governments to form a majority and avoid a legislative logjam in parliament; but PR from the same ballot could be used to form the composition of the second chamber, where legislation is revised and tempered but not created. This would at least ensure all views are represented in our parliamentary system. The current system of political appointments to the Lords, plus the bishops is bloated, ineffective, unrepresentative and serves nobody except the duffers, the faintly confused and the well-connected who are due a’favour’ that are lucky enough to wind up in there.

pastafarian · May 8, 2021

Bry Nylon said:
I think FPTP should remain to elect MPs to enable governments to form a majority and avoid a legislative logjam in parliament; but PR from the same ballot could be used to form the composition of the second chamber, where legislation is revised and tempered but not created. This would at least ensure all views are represented in our parliamentary system. The current system of political appointments to the Lords, plus the bishops is bloated, ineffective, unrepresentative and serves nobody except the duffers, the faintly confused and the well-connected who are due a’favour’ that are lucky enough to wind up in there.

Amen

clapham_gull · May 8, 2021

Bry Nylon said:
I think FPTP should remain to elect MPs to enable governments to form a majority and avoid a legislative logjam in parliament; but PR from the same ballot could be used to form the composition of the second chamber, where legislation is revised and tempered but not created. This would at least ensure all views are represented in our parliamentary system. The current system of political appointments to the Lords, plus the bishops is bloated, ineffective, unrepresentative and serves nobody except the duffers, the faintly confused and the well-connected who are due a’favour’ that are lucky enough to wind up in there.

No idea why the second vote we have in London wouldn't work nationally. It isn't PR.

It doesn't produce log jam, quite the opposite.

It's FPTP that caused log jam in Parliament (and ropey coalitions) over the last few years, a second vote can ease out a winner.

Eeyore · May 8, 2021

beorhthelm said:
this view is saddening, its not enough to vote, it has to "win" to matter.

No, I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

If I vote for a party that gains 32% of the overall national vote I expect them to be given 32% of the seats in parliament.

That way every vote is equal.

In 1983, the SDP Alliance took a quarter of the national vote. That translates into 157 seats. They won 23. That is not democracy.

Most nations understand this. Yet we still have an archaic system based on the old boroughs.

No-one has yet given me a proper argument to counter this.

The Tories did not 'win' the last election. They were simply the party that won the most votes. That is not enough. 57% of the nation did not vote for a Tory government. Like Labour before them they therefore have no majority mandate.

Nobody should have to walk to a polling booth wondering why they bother as their candidate cannot win. They should go there knowing that their vote will help determine the make up of government.

As I said, the UK is one of only a few nations that don't get that. In the US, Trump was not elected by the popular vote in 2016- he lost it. Thus the American people were not listened to.

The only reason the Tories and Labour will never change this is because it works to their detriment.

Weststander · May 8, 2021

beorhthelm said:
this view is saddening, its not enough to vote, it has to "win" to matter.

I agree, people should vote, if for any reason to make a statement on the national numbers tallied.

But I’m the only one out of three, who can vote, who bothers in this household.

Their apathy isn’t due to FPTP, instead not particularly interested in politics and parties.

crodonilson · May 8, 2021

clapham_gull said:
Closer than the polls suggested, but Khan holds London.

Would have been interesting if the Conservative party had bothered to put their weight behind their candidate...

... but they didn't.

Another historic term for Sadiq building in all of the success of his first term, the people of London have firmly spoken.

The results from the rest of England are very depressing and show the institutional racism that pervades particularly in working class communities.

Sid in the Sharknado · May 8, 2021

Brighton Lines said:
No, I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

If I vote for a party that gains 32% of the overall national vote I expect them to be given 32% of the seats in parliament.

That way every vote is equal.

In 1983, the SDP Alliance took a quarter of the national vote. That translates into 157 seats. They won 23. That is not democracy.

Most nations understand this. Yet we still have an archaic system based on the old boroughs.

No-one has yet given me a proper argument to counter this.

The Tories did not 'win' the last election. They were simply the party that won the most votes. That is not enough. 57% of the nation did not vote for a Tory government. Like Labour before them they therefore have no majority mandate.

Nobody should have to walk to a polling booth wondering why they bother as their candidate cannot win. They should go there knowing that their vote will help determine the make up of government.

As I said, the UK is one of only a few nations that don't get that. In the US, Trump was not elected by the popular vote in 2016- he lost it. Thus the American people were not listened to.

The only reason the Tories and Labour will never change this is because it works to their detriment.

You won't get a sensible argument for FPTP, there isn't one.

It's supported by whoever it benefits at the time, and people who can't be bothered to engage with the slightly niche realm of electoral systems beyond "PR = Nazis in Weimar Germany".

Sid in the Sharknado · May 8, 2021

Bry Nylon said:
I think FPTP should remain to elect MPs to enable governments to form a majority and avoid a legislative logjam in parliament; but PR from the same ballot could be used to form the composition of the second chamber, where legislation is revised and tempered but not created. This would at least ensure all views are represented in our parliamentary system. The current system of political appointments to the Lords, plus the bishops is bloated, ineffective, unrepresentative and serves nobody except the duffers, the faintly confused and the well-connected who are due a’favour’ that are lucky enough to wind up in there.

I'd like to quickly address FPTP's reputation for giving us large majorities. Let's consider some examples:

2017: The Conservatives are forced to rely on the DUP to govern "effectively"
2010: Coalition
1992: John Major gains a small majority, which he lost by the next election
1974: Two elections in one year - the first led to no clear majority, the second allowed Labour to form a government which quickly came to rely on Liberal support.
1964: Labour won a majority of 4. Another election called two years later.
1950: Labour won a majority of 5. Another election called the following year.
Elections throughout the 30s were massively skewed by the (Conservative and Unionist dominated) National government.
1929: Labour won the most seats with no majority, despite receiving fewer votes than the conservatives.

I could go on, but the point is that apart from a few periods when the opposition were utterly crap for one reason or another in the 50s, 80s and 00s, FPTP's reputation for regularly providing clear majority governments is simply not supported by the actual results. All it does is arbitrarily distort the results to favour one or another party, and totally screws over some of the others.

Eeyore · May 8, 2021

clapham_gull said:
Closer than the polls suggested, but Khan holds London.

Would have been interesting if the Conservative party had bothered to put their weight behind their candidate...

... but they didn't.

Laurence Fox was beaten by a kid from YouTube :laugh:

clapham_gull · May 8, 2021

The results in London are almost identical to Livingstone's 2nd term.

It's the third highest Majority (Ken first term, then Khan's first) and higher than Boris ever got.

crodonilson · May 8, 2021

We had a referendum on FPTP only a few short years ago and the people unanimously voted that it was their preferred system, that is democracy.

crodonilson · May 8, 2021

clapham_gull said:
The results in London are almost identical to Livingstone's 2nd term.

It's the third highest Majority (Ken first term, then Khan's first) and higher than Boris ever got.

It is an absolutely breathtaking victory, Khan has built a reputation for getting things done and standing up to racism and facism. London has clearly spoken, lets hope the country are listening.

clapham_gull · May 8, 2021

Lib Dems beaten to 4th by the Greens for the third London election in a row.

inland seagull · May 8, 2021

Motogull said:

Sorry mate, you should have stayed home and not wasted your breath

clapham_gull · May 8, 2021

Brighton Lines said:
Laurence Fox was beaten by a kid from YouTube

Well Laurence Fox is little more that a You Tube presence either these days.

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[Politics] May 2021 local elections and Hartlepool by-election

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