Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

Register Log in

[Albion] Attacking width



Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
55,834
Back in Sussex
Amazing given the glut of wide players that have come our way over recent years and, indeed, those we still own, that our starting line-up against Manchester United involved playing a right-back (Lamptey) wide on the right and a central-midfielder (Bissouma) wide on the left.

Izquierdo: parma-injured.
Knockaert: at Fulham
Trossard: sub
March: sub
Ali J: last seen alive several months ago
 




RM-Taylor

RM-Taylor

He's Magic.... You Know
Jan 7, 2006
15,278
MacAllister, Mooy and Gross also been deployed in those wide positions in recent games despite all being best when playing centrally.

Think for Saturday, March will start RW and Trossard LW
 




Swansman

Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
RM-Taylor said:
MacAllister, Mooy and Gross also been deployed in those wide positions in recent games despite all being best when playing centrally.

Think for Saturday, March will start RW and Trossard LW
Click to expand...

Most teams play what would previously been AMC:s (no 10) as wingers these days as having two defensive midfielders became the shit in the 1990s, since there's little space centrally. This development just increased first around 2004 when "the obvious 10" Ronaldinho was highly successful operating from the left wing, really kicking off the trend with inverted playmaking wingers.

This continued to be an increasingly common method of getting your playmakers involved when the data revolution came around and the old theory about the superior efficiency of forcing your opponent to attack down the flanks (rather than evening out your defense allowing a bit more space centrally and less on the wings) was proven to be correct.

Shouldnt that mean that traditional wingers who dribble a defender and make a cross are more important today? Not really. Partly because crossing is inefficient compared to cutbacks, combining into goal scoring opportunities or just use your wingers to create space centrally outside of the penalty area. And partly because in modern football you cant afford to have a slow, static 195 cm striker who does nothing but head the ball.

Gross, Mooy etc... sure, its possible that they are best while operating from central positions, problem is that very few teams would allow them to do that. If you want to see them have a lot of ball, you need to put them wide (while allowing them to use any space that may randomly occur centrally).
 


bhafc99

bhafc99

Well-known member
Oct 14, 2003
7,110
Dubai




Moshe Gariani

Moshe Gariani

Well-known member
Mar 10, 2005
12,101
Swansman said:
Most teams play what would previously been AMC:s (no 10) as wingers these days as having two defensive midfielders became the shit in the 1990s, since there's little space centrally. This development just increased first around 2004 when "the obvious 10" Ronaldinho was highly successful operating from the left wing, really kicking off the trend with inverted playmaking wingers.

This continued to be an increasingly common method of getting your playmakers involved when the data revolution came around and the old theory about the superior efficiency of forcing your opponent to attack down the flanks (rather than evening out your defense allowing a bit more space centrally and less on the wings) was proven to be correct.

Shouldnt that mean that traditional wingers who dribble a defender and make a cross are more important today? Not really. Partly because crossing is inefficient compared to cutbacks, combining into goal scoring opportunities or just use your wingers to create space centrally outside of the penalty area. And partly because in modern football you cant afford to have a slow, static 195 cm striker who does nothing but head the ball.

Gross, Mooy etc... sure, its possible that they are best while operating from central positions, problem is that very few teams would allow them to do that. If you want to see them have a lot of ball, you need to put them wide (while allowing them to use any space that may randomly occur centrally).
Click to expand...

Interesting reading and makes sense.

Presumably GP hoped we might be able to find Lamptey in space last night once or twice (just a shame we never had the ball).
 




M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,708
Fiveways
Swansman said:
Most teams play what would previously been AMC:s (no 10) as wingers these days as having two defensive midfielders became the shit in the 1990s, since there's little space centrally. This development just increased first around 2004 when "the obvious 10" Ronaldinho was highly successful operating from the left wing, really kicking off the trend with inverted playmaking wingers.

This continued to be an increasingly common method of getting your playmakers involved when the data revolution came around and the old theory about the superior efficiency of forcing your opponent to attack down the flanks (rather than evening out your defense allowing a bit more space centrally and less on the wings) was proven to be correct.

Shouldnt that mean that traditional wingers who dribble a defender and make a cross are more important today? Not really. Partly because crossing is inefficient compared to cutbacks, combining into goal scoring opportunities or just use your wingers to create space centrally outside of the penalty area. And partly because in modern football you cant afford to have a slow, static 195 cm striker who does nothing but head the ball.

Gross, Mooy etc... sure, its possible that they are best while operating from central positions, problem is that very few teams would allow them to do that. If you want to see them have a lot of ball, you need to put them wide (while allowing them to use any space that may randomly occur centrally).
Click to expand...

Yes, really good analysis (do you read Jonathan Wilson, or is Sweden replete with analysts in Wilson's style?). Hughton liked wingers, which explains why the OP enumerated a long list of them, whereas Potter doesn't or doesn't for us so far (I did read your post on the Ali J thread). And this explains Knockaert's departure, Ali J's rare appearances, and March cropping up all over the place, and number 10/ACMs nominally positioned on the right or left of midfield. Potter seems to play narrow, which is fine, I'd just like to see full-backs overlapping a little more, and think that in Lamptey and Bernardo we have two ideal candidates. I've no idea why the latter doesn't feature much for Potter: any explanation?
 




E

Eric Youngs Contact Lense

Guest
Machiavelli said:
Yes, really good analysis (do you read Jonathan Wilson, or is Sweden replete with analysts in Wilson's style?). Hughton liked wingers, which explains why the OP enumerated a long list of them, whereas Potter doesn't or doesn't for us so far (I did read your post on the Ali J thread). And this explains Knockaert's departure, Ali J's rare appearances, and March cropping up all over the place, and number 10/ACMs nominally positioned on the right or left of midfield. Potter seems to play narrow, which is fine, I'd just like to see full-backs overlapping a little more, and think that in Lamptey and Bernardo we have two ideal candidates. I've no idea why the latter doesn't feature much for Potter: any explanation?
Click to expand...


It does seem a strange one at times. Last night, second half, there were times when Burn did get forward, but there were others where he simply couldn't get there. Bernardo looks like such a strong option (to many of us), but clearly GP not convinced and it appears baffling. Even coming on last night it seemed odd not to let him use his fresh legs to attack from Left back rather than defend centrally. That said, Burn has been consistent and surprised many of us at just how well he had done defensively at full-back, but left-back appears to be one of the few positions GP has not experimented with, suggesting it is personnel driven rather than tactical?
 




M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,708
Fiveways
Eric Youngs Contact Lense said:
[/B]
It does seem a strange one at times. Last night, second half, there were times when Burn did get forward, but there were others where he simply couldn't get there. Bernardo looks like such a strong option (to many of us), but clearly GP not convinced and it appears baffling. Even coming on last night it seemed odd not to let him use his fresh legs to attack from Left back rather than defend centrally. That said, Burn has been consistent and surprised many of us at just how well he had done defensively at full-back, but left-back appears to be one of the few positions GP has not experimented with, suggesting it is personnel driven rather than tactical?
Click to expand...

I'm with you on that. I will say that Burn hasn't let us down, has been consistent and hasn't had a bad game but he does seem limited. I don't know whether Potter thinks his height gives up options at goal kicks but that seems to me a rather lame reason for picking a player.
Burn does get forward and overlap, but it really doesn't happen too much. Bernardo has not only got the pace, he's also got the stamina to do it better and more regularly.
 






DarrenFreemansPerm

DarrenFreemansPerm

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Sep 28, 2010
17,337
Shoreham
Machiavelli said:
I'm with you on that. I will say that Burn hasn't let us down, has been consistent and hasn't had a bad game but he does seem limited. I don't know whether Potter thinks his height gives up options at goal kicks but that seems to me a rather lame reason for picking a player.
Burn does get forward and overlap, but it really doesn't happen too much. Bernardo has not only got the pace, he's also got the stamina to do it better and more regularly.
Click to expand...

This isn’t meant as a slight against Potter, but I believe he still has no idea what his best XI is.
 


Grombleton

Grombleton

Surrounded by <div>s
Dec 31, 2011
7,356




R

raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
5,740
Wiltshire
True that Burn hasn't let us down, but his forward runs produce zero or little - also when was the last time he (or any of our tall defenders) scored a header from a corner or free kick? I'm surprised Potter hasn't given Bernardo more game time at left back, see what the lad can do, before he decides he's not welcome here: and If he wants to keep using Burn, then rotate him with Webster.
 


Badger Boy

Badger Boy

Mr Badger
Jan 28, 2016
3,656
DarrenFreemansPerm said:
This isn’t meant as a slight against Potter, but I believe he still has no idea what his best XI is.
Click to expand...

I think he genuinely believes what he says before and after every game, that his team selection changes depending on who we're playing and how he wants us to play. Personally, I don't think it's been to the benefit of any individuals in the team and therefore isn't a good strategy. I've been bemoaning the lack of width recently but [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION] said he's used wingers before and a load of other words besides.

I don't enjoy seeing Mooy playing on the wing and I think the reason we're struggling to score goals is our lack of quality in wide positions.
 


R

raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
5,740
Wiltshire
Swansman said:
Most teams play what would previously been AMC:s (no 10) as wingers these days as having two defensive midfielders became the shit in the 1990s, since there's little space centrally. This development just increased first around 2004 when "the obvious 10" Ronaldinho was highly successful operating from the left wing, really kicking off the trend with inverted playmaking wingers.

This continued to be an increasingly common method of getting your playmakers involved when the data revolution came around and the old theory about the superior efficiency of forcing your opponent to attack down the flanks (rather than evening out your defense allowing a bit more space centrally and less on the wings) was proven to be correct.

Shouldnt that mean that traditional wingers who dribble a defender and make a cross are more important today? Not really. Partly because crossing is inefficient compared to cutbacks, combining into goal scoring opportunities or just use your wingers to create space centrally outside of the penalty area. And partly because in modern football you cant afford to have a slow, static 195 cm striker who does nothing but head the ball.

Gross, Mooy etc... sure, its possible that they are best while operating from central positions, problem is that very few teams would allow them to do that. If you want to see them have a lot of ball, you need to put them wide (while allowing them to use any space that may randomly occur centrally).
Click to expand...

Wow...and I thought Universities were closed for the Summer! Seriously, an interesting post 👍
 


F

Fourteenth Eye

Face for Radio
Jul 9, 2004
7,940
Brighton
I thought that playing Trossard more centrally was a revelation last night.

We have not really played with any width all season. Getting crosses into the box doesn't appear to be part of Potterball & is the reason we don't see so much of Glenn.
 




Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
55,834
Back in Sussex
DarrenFreemansPerm said:
This isn’t meant as a slight against Potter, but I believe he still has no idea what his best XI is.
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced he feels he needs to know what a best Xi is.

Even assuming everyone is fit, fresh and not being "rested" for an upcoming fixture, I think Potter will make selections based on countering particular opposition threats and/or targeting opposition weaknesses.
 


Swansman

Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Machiavelli said:
Yes, really good analysis (do you read Jonathan Wilson, or is Sweden replete with analysts in Wilson's style?). Hughton liked wingers, which explains why the OP enumerated a long list of them, whereas Potter doesn't or doesn't for us so far (I did read your post on the Ali J thread). And this explains Knockaert's departure, Ali J's rare appearances, and March cropping up all over the place, and number 10/ACMs nominally positioned on the right or left of midfield. Potter seems to play narrow, which is fine, I'd just like to see full-backs overlapping a little more, and think that in Lamptey and Bernardo we have two ideal candidates. I've no idea why the latter doesn't feature much for Potter: any explanation?
Click to expand...

A few years ago (well.. like six years ago.. getting old) I studied to be a football coach for six months, recieving the UEFA B diploma and while that diploma got very little to do with tactics and more to do with youth development, we still learned a lot about the history of football tactics and especially the development within recent times, especially from the early 90s onwards when coaching started to get a bit more scientific. Outside of the Netherlands that is, they were 20 years ahead when it came to having a scientific approach to it.

Potter likes wingers as well, but they cant be one-dimensional because if they are, its too easy to lock them out of a game. Lets say that... Roy Hodgson analyse Brighton and look at the data: Ali J (just an example) always challenges on the outside, trying to beat his man and always aims his crosses at the penalty spot. It is extremely easy to counter: you tell the left back to stay on his feet and just cover instead of trying to intercept, you tell CB1 to cover the first post so that the goalkeeper can take a step forward and dominate the area around the penalty spot.

If you have players that go for and are capable of performing lot of different options - sometimes cuts inside, sometimes goes on the outside, sometimes look for one-two combinations - its much more difficult to defend against. The traditional one trick pony winger is on their way out. Of course there's exceptions - a player like Arjen Robben is pretty predictable but you cant do shit against him.

At present, yes I agree Brighton plays quite narrow - much more so than Östersund and Swansea did, and I think this will change as the team develops. But as long as most of the players are slow its quite dangerous to try to change the shape of the team when transitioning from attack to defense and vice versa. If you give a superior team a chance to abuse spaces centrally you are going to get punished.

As for Bernardo he really seems like a Potter player and I think - though I can ofc not be certain - his long recurring absences are tied to something else, like either poor attitude, some underlying injury problem or personal issues. Also Dan Burn is very important to the team as it has played in most games: put early pressure on their GK and defenders and try to force them to play it long. Additionally, he gives a valuable option when playing from the keeper or from the central defenders - if they get under too much pressure playing it high to Burn is a nice plan B since there's very few wingers or wing backs that could beat him in the air.

That said, Bernardo is also great in the air and I think we would have seen more of him if he wasnt having whatever issue he has. Wouldnt be surprised to see him shipped & replaced in the summer with a player who would eventually challenge for a spot in the starting eleven, as Burn - despite all his strengths - is not the "final solution" to the left back.
 


You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Albion and Premier League latest from Sky Sports


Top
Link Here