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[Albion] This Webster experiment ends jan 1st !!



Whitechapel

Whitechapel

Famous Last Words
Jul 19, 2014
4,086
Not in Whitechapel
Easy 10 said:
I guess I just have an old-fashioned view that a CBs primary modus operandi is to defend. We have other craftsmen in the team to bring the ball out and break the lines, but what every team needs is a DOMINANT centreback who wins everything in the air, does the basics, wins the ball and allows everyone else to do their stuff. Potter has revolutionised how we play, but IMO, splitting up that D&D partnership has now made us weaker in a key area.
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It’s a difficult concept to grasp, especially with the complete 180 degree change in tactics for us but I’ll try to explain.

The point of ball retention in our own half is to force the opponent to push up so we can then find the gaps further forward and play through them as they try to press us near our own box. Ryan/Dunk/Webster being comfortable on the ball forces attackers to close them down, Stephens then drops in to the gap they’ve left and that means unless their midfielders follow him he’ll have acres of room. We use the space in midfield to launch short passes through the press in to midfield where we can then spring a counter attack (our winner against Everton is a perfect example) or if the whole team presses up we look for the long ball from back to front instantly (Maupay today & against Watford for example)

Replacing Webster with Duffy would have a massive detrimental effect on this. When Dunk has the ball currently his options are normally to pass to Webster, Burn, Stephens or back to Ryan. This means the whole opposition team need to press if they want to close all of those options. This then opens up room for a clipped ball in to Propper/Mooy/Groß who will have more room, or a pass to Ryan who can spray the ball out wide or even a long ball for Maupay/Connolly/Trossard to run on to. Remove Webster and replace him with Duffy and all of a sudden a two man press can cause us problems. It’s much easier to just close the passing lanes to Stephens & Burn knowing that Duffy isn’t as cultured on the ball. Suddenly the options are to go long (when there’s much less space) or play it back to Ryan (who himself will have less passing options as Duffy isn’t the same option as Webster would have been). It would either mean more risky passes round the back which leads to more mistakes like today or more percentage long balls that would mean losing possession and inviting more pressure on to ourselves.

Removing Webster to replace with Duffy would actually really hamper how we play, and ironically Wolves are the perfect example of what we can achieve. All 3 of their defenders today were midfielders a few years ago. Coday has been a defender for a while now but Saiss & Dedonker have been converted in the last couple of years. All 3 of them are decent defensively, but they’re there because of it their passing ability. Despite that Wolves have conceded 19 goals this year; only 4 teams have conceded less.

Webster might not be quite there yet, but the blueprint for a White -Dunk - Webster - defence was there in front of us today
 




B

blue-shifted

Banned
Feb 20, 2004
7,645
a galaxy far far away
lawros left foot said:
Where will Clarke( the kiddy we got from the tw@s) fit into all this next season?

As for White, our promotion season , Knocky was voted the best player in the division. Where is he now?
It’s a huge gulf between Premier League and Championship especially for young defenders.
Let’s just let the club do what they know to be best.
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At the moment, he won't
 


B

blue-shifted

Banned
Feb 20, 2004
7,645
a galaxy far far away
BensGrandad said:
To solve our goals conceded is easy play a back 4 of Webster or Montoya with Duffy and Dunk together in the middle, 2 of the best in the Premier together last season, and Bernardo at left back. This is so obvious and easy to see, but GP cannot or will not see it.
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Have you thought about writing him a letter?
 


nwgull

nwgull

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2003
13,829
Manchester
I think we should recall Ben White, just to **** up Leeds’ promotion bid.

Is it true that Barber was on TalkShite saying that a recall in Jan was possible? Stuff I’d previously read on social media seemed to indicate that it wasn’t.
 


B

blue-shifted

Banned
Feb 20, 2004
7,645
a galaxy far far away
The Wizard said:
How do people still not seem to get it, how can you compare Duffy and Dunk of last season to any partnership this season? In Hughtons system a lot of the time we had Propper and Stephens sitting very deep protecting the back 4, bus park defending is totally and completely different to the way we play now, look how many players we commit forward and you wonder why our defenders look exposed and make mistakes.

He’s playing his first season in a brutal league, with a very attacking system of course I’m not denying he hasn’t made mistakes as have all of our defenders, look at today for the first goal Webster gets stick but Alzate positioning was dreadful and left Webster absolutely exposed. Why do some players get a free pass and others chastised?
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I'll guess because with Webster it seems to be part of a pattern of poor form and there is some latitude given to Alzate as he is clearly out of position
 




B

blue-shifted

Banned
Feb 20, 2004
7,645
a galaxy far far away
Whitechapel said:
It’s a difficult concept to grasp, especially with the complete 180 degree change in tactics for us but I’ll try to explain.

The point of ball retention in our own half is to force the opponent to push up so we can then find the gaps further forward and play through them as they try to press us near our own box. Ryan/Dunk/Webster being comfortable on the ball forces attackers to close them down, Stephens then drops in to the gap they’ve left and that means unless their midfielders follow him he’ll have acres of room. We use the space in midfield to launch short passes through the press in to midfield where we can then spring a counter attack (our winner against Everton is a perfect example) or if the whole team presses up we look for the long ball from back to front instantly (Maupay today & against Watford for example)

Replacing Webster with Duffy would have a massive detrimental effect on this. When Dunk has the ball currently his options are normally to pass to Webster, Burn, Stephens or back to Ryan. This means the whole opposition team need to press if they want to close all of those options. This then opens up room for a clipped ball in to Propper/Mooy/Groß who will have more room, or a pass to Ryan who can spray the ball out wide or even a long ball for Maupay/Connolly/Trossard to run on to. Remove Webster and replace him with Duffy and all of a sudden a two man press can cause us problems. It’s much easier to just close the passing lanes to Stephens & Burn knowing that Duffy isn’t as cultured on the ball. Suddenly the options are to go long (when there’s much less space) or play it back to Ryan (who himself will have less passing options as Duffy isn’t the same option as Webster would have been). It would either mean more risky passes round the back which leads to more mistakes like today or more percentage long balls that would mean losing possession and inviting more pressure on to ourselves.

Removing Webster to replace with Duffy would actually really hamper how we play, and ironically Wolves are the perfect example of what we can achieve. All 3 of their defenders today were midfielders a few years ago. Coday has been a defender for a while now but Saiss & Dedonker have been converted in the last couple of years. All 3 of them are decent defensively, but they’re there because of it their passing ability. Despite that Wolves have conceded 19 goals this year; only 4 teams have conceded less.

Webster might not be quite there yet, but the blueprint for a White -Dunk - Webster - defence was there in front of us today
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Some accurate points about the point of ball retention, though the way you made them makes you sound like a bit of a knob, the whole theory falls down though if the player bought in to replace the good defender who can't pass* is an average defender whose passing isn't that crash hot either.

*i'll let you have that for the sake of this debate, but Duffy isn't the donkey you're making him out to be

In any case it's irrelevant. Duffy's days are numbered here and we all know it, even if we don't want it to happen. GP just doesn't want that type of defender. The thread was about whether we should recall White. I think yes.
 


The Wizard

The Wizard

Well-known member
Jul 2, 2009
18,383
I rate White, having seen him plenty of times he is clearly a serious talent BUT I’m sorry so people seriously suggest we should destroy Websters confidence early on in his top division career, our record signing bought in only a few months ago, and recall White and throw a totally inexperienced defender with not a single PL minute straight into the lions den?

It’s actually moronic, the Duffy argument I understand to a degree despite not agreeing but the White recall idea is utterly stupid.
 


Birdie Boy

Birdie Boy

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2011
4,108
Surely everyone can see that Webster needs dropping, if only to give him something to think about. I think he will be a good player but he is not showing it enough so far but that is mainly due to PL inexperience. Drop him and lets see his reaction and Duffy's.
 




B

BensGrandad

New member
Jul 13, 2003
72,015
Haywards Heath
My point was that there is no need to recall Ben White just play 2 of last seasons Premiers best CB partnerships back together again ie Duffy and Dunk and either play Montoya or Webster at right back the big must however is to bring back Berrnardo now he is recovered from his injury, assuming he is.
 


Don Tmatter

Don Tmatter

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
4,993
dont matter
The Wizard said:
I’m staggered so many football fans don’t understand that you can’t compare Duffy from last season to Webster of this season, totally different systems this year our defenders are given much less protection and are left far more exposed. Webster is better than Duffy.
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Not at heading, tackling or clearing the ball he’s not, atm
 


Whitechapel

Whitechapel

Famous Last Words
Jul 19, 2014
4,086
Not in Whitechapel
blue-shifted said:
Some accurate points about the point of ball retention, though the way you made them makes you sound like a bit of a knob, the whole theory falls down though if the player bought in to replace the good defender who can't pass* is an average defender whose passing isn't that crash hot either.

*i'll let you have that for the sake of this debate, but Duffy isn't the donkey you're making him out to be

In any case it's irrelevant. Duffy's days are numbered here and we all know it, even if we don't want it to happen. GP just doesn't want that type of defender. The thread was about whether we should recall White. I think yes.
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Well thank you for calling me a knob, it means a lot coming from a passive aggressive anonymous stranger on the internet. :shrug:

Webster has a higher pass success ratio than Dunk this season, despite a much higher percentage of his passes going forward. To say his passing isn’t that hot is pretty harsh on him. Shane Duffy is a better defender, but to try and make out their passing ability similar is simply wrong

Sorry if that makes me sound like a knob. :shrug:
 






Blackadder

Blackadder

Brighton Bhuna Boy
Jul 6, 2003
16,077
Haywards Heath
There are some very interesting points made in this thread. Webster and Duffy both have their merits. I wouldn't say either are poor players. I wouldn't be adverse to switching them in and out, depending on opponents. One thing for sure Alzate is very good player, just not a back 4 player.

Just out of interest (I genuinely don't know) Can we recall White in January?

FWIW I don't we will (if we can)
 


Sheebo

Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,297
Poor game today and although I think he’s been decent enough, it’s time for the unfortunate Duffy to have a run in the team in his place.
 






Easy 10

Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
61,783
Location Location
Whitechapel said:
Well thank you for calling me a knob, it means a lot coming from a passive aggressive anonymous stranger on the internet. :shrug:

Webster has a higher pass success ratio than Dunk this season, despite a much higher percentage of his passes going forward. To say his passing isn’t that hot is pretty harsh on him. Shane Duffy is a better defender, but to try and make out their passing ability similar is simply wrong

Sorry if that makes me sound like a knob. :shrug:
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You sound like a knob because you're stating the bleedin' obvious, whilst presenting it as "insight". I didn't need a 5 paragraph thesis MANSPLAINING the theory behind our tactics. I am fully aware of the difference between Webster and Duffy, and the different aspects they bring to the team.

In my opinion, the ball-playing Webster is a less effective defender than the mobile wall unit that is Duffy. He takes risks that do not need to be taken. We HAVE a ball-playing CB in Dunk, and again, in my opinion, they are a far more effective defensive partnership. Duffy will win it and play it simple to someone who can pick a pass. Webster won't win it, or when he does, he often ends up losing it. I appreciate this is Potters style - he wants all our defenders to be comfortable to dribble out from the back - but I think by splitting D&D he has inevitably weakened us in that area. Sometimes it'll work, but a lot of the time it'll cost us, because Webster is simply not as good at heading or tackling then Duffy is, and I don't think the trade-off (an extra ball-playing CB in the team) is worth it.
 




Not Andy Naylor

Not Andy Naylor

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2007
8,799
Seven Dials
Doc Lynam said:
Duffy is not good enough with the ball, how complicated is that to understand!
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Sometimes Webster isn't either. It's encouraging in a way that he believes he can carry the ball out of defence like Mark Lawrenson or Franz Beckenbauer in their pomp, but reality occasionally has other ideas.

It's interesting that Potter arrived with a reputation of being very tactically flexible and changing personnel to fit situations from game to game, but so far that has its limits - otherwise I think we'd have seen more of Duffy. The wide positions change, but Webster, Dunk, Burn, Stephens and Propper always play. And I think GP will always try to find a place for Alzate.

Add in Mooy and Gross (because we only win when he starts) and the options are shrinking. If this continues, one of Maupay, Trossard and Connolly will always miss out, and Montoya, Bissouma and March will find it increasingly hard to get a look-in.
 




Stat Brother

Stat Brother

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
73,870
West west west Sussex


M

Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,293
CliveWalkerWingWizard said:
He is good but his decision making is not good enough, you do not try and run past 2players when you are the last defender. You shouldn’t send short passes to players with an opponent on their back. He made 2 bad errors in the first 9 minutes, after that he lost confidence and stopped playing forward passes. As long as he learns from his mistakes he will come good.
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Well I hope he does because his error strewn first half of the season has left the jury out for me. I can see what the Doctor is trying to do but without Dunk, who covers manfully for some of Webster's errors, we would have dropped more points. The attempt to dribble out yesterday against 2-3 men was ridiculous and naive. Play it simply and play it accurately, thats all we ask. Watch Van Dijk, learn and play the percentages.
 


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