[Politics] Brexit

Hu_Camus · May 25, 2019

London Irish said:
Very interesting poll results, the media have always pumped out the idea there was a lot of voting remorse. Never thought it was true and this poll is yet more evidence.

It is why I posted the question. As the result was so close, even a tiny swing can change the result. What it suggests most convincingly however, is that the last three years have cause little internal review by most of us....that what the majority now think is "I was, and am right - the 'others' are wrong".

On balance I think asking the question will, in the end, turn out to be cathartic for our Democracy, but it may take years for that improvement in Democratic outcome to filter through.

Chicken Run · May 25, 2019

Hu_Camus said:
Three years on, just how much have our opinions shifted?
So counting yourself as broadly neutral before at 5, and after still broadly neutral at 5 you're a '0'
If you were very strongly for one side, and are now very strongly for the other you'd be a 10.
My statistical curiosity is about whether people have re-evaluated their stance, and not necessarily their opinions per se.

My opinions haven’t changed.

Chicken Run · May 25, 2019

London Irish said:
Very interesting poll results, the media have always pumped out the idea there was a lot of voting remorse. Never thought it was true and this poll is yet more evidence.

Changes have happened. If you voted Leave, you are now less likely to want a compromise and instead want hard Brexit. If you voted Remain, you are also less likely to want a compromise but now full revocation of the referendum result.

After the referendum there was about a third of the country in between these two extreme points, and the Labour party aimed to represent them.

Now that space has dramatically shrunk to probably only about 10-20 per cent.

That we've become more polarised is very dangerous.

The extreme Remainers think they are winning because Brexit is being blocked. But Sunday's European election results will show a big backlash with the Brexit party winning easily. The big question is can this pro Brexit backlash be transferred into a General Election? Currently the polls aren't showing that with a comfortable lead for Labour, even tho they will be beaten in the euro elections

Good points LI.

Westdene Seagull · May 25, 2019

clapham_gull said:
I was a very reluctant remainer and dragged myself out to vote. I then found myself supportive of May's fudge to try and heal the wounds. However I've gone full circle and now fully committed to remain or most probably voting for any party that is committed to take us back in.

I've tried to show empathy for those who voted leave but I've given up. I've never heard a rational argument particularly on here,

Leavers generally fall into three camps.

1) Those who are quite happy to suck up any populist nonsense without checking out the facts. Those who "know their place" and are fooled by the posh accent of Rees Mogg when even the Royal family don't speak like that.

2) The racist and the xenophobic. Hardly unique, but it's easy and lazy to blame the "other".

3) The dangerously intelligent who hide their personal agenda behind arguments of "sovereignty". These are the ones who hate any form of regulation, are quite happy to see the death of farming and manufacturing and import dubious goods from dubious regimes. They will universally benefit from Brexit and cynically try to persuade you that you will too.

My personal and paradoxical view of the EU is that it is undemocratic and in need of reform whilst protecting us from the excesses of our own system which is:

1) Far more undemocratic than the EU.
2) Far more bureaucratic. The EU employs 55,000 staff, the UK civil services employs 330,000.
2) Belongs to a different era.
3) Prone to populism from both left and right.

There is a very good reason for your first point 2 - but clearly, despite having a Masters, you're not intelligent enough to realise it ( or to be able to count to four it seems ).

nicko31 · May 25, 2019

A bit yes.

Leaving is an even worse idea than I thought in 2016

drew · May 25, 2019

LadySeagull said:
No. Are you?

Better than the situation now. You will see in the end. I know change is scary, but bear with the majority.

Good point well made.

What majority? The majority did not vote for Brexit!

Mo Gosfield · May 25, 2019

Hu_Camus said:
A thoughtful review, of which this phrase is the most pertinent imho .....
"My personal and paradoxical view of the EU is that it is..... "undemocratic"
Undemocratic, and as of now incapable of change or self-review. I want really the idea to of the EU succeed, and maybe the probable shock results of this recent election may inspire an element of introspection, but I shall not hold my breath.

Definitely don't hold your breath.
There will be no introspection. There will be no reform. The path forward and the mission will not change. We can all see benefits to being in the EU but we can also see how much better it should have been for us as a country. By sweeping away trading barriers, Brussels ensured that the manufacturing giant that is Germany got stronger and stronger. As our heavy industry base declined, so our profile changed and we became a service dominated country. Our demand for imports grew to the extent where we now run a massive trading deficit with the EU, despite being in surplus in services. An unhealthy balance has been created because there was an unwillingness, from both sides, to recognise that the EU in its present format, doesn't best suit us.
I have waited years to be persuaded that the EU was going to undertake the sort of reform needed but they have continued hellbent on the path to expansionism. Whole swathes of their ' membership ' have been reduced to poverty stricken countries with mass youth unemployment. The golden vision is in reality, the silver lined Northern European dream.
Its single- mindedness is both its strength and its ultimate demise. It won't survive as it is and its leaders will not attempt any change. They see no reason to. They don't believe that political and economic history is against them. Theirs is the new way and the right way forward and there is no going back.
There will be a stronger Franco-German trading alliance. They see the dangers ahead. They can see splinters becoming cracks. This is the powerhouse core of Europe. Not this behemoth, getting ever bigger before it bursts, called the EU. European politics will determine the future of the EU and European politics is changing.

Baldseagull · May 25, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
Definitely don't hold your breath.
There will be no introspection. There will be no reform. The path forward and the mission will not change. We can all see benefits to being in the EU but we can also see how much better it should have been for us as a country. By sweeping away trading barriers, Brussels ensured that the manufacturing giant that is Germany got stronger and stronger. As our heavy industry base declined, so our profile changed and we became a service dominated country. Our demand for imports grew to the extent where we now run a massive trading deficit with the EU, despite being in surplus in services. An unhealthy balance has been created because there was an unwillingness, from both sides, to recognise that the EU in its present format, doesn't best suit us.
I have waited years to be persuaded that the EU was going to undertake the sort of reform needed but they have continued hellbent on the path to expansionism. Whole swathes of their ' membership ' have been reduced to poverty stricken countries with mass youth unemployment. The golden vision is in reality, the silver lined Northern European dream.
Its single- mindedness is both its strength and its ultimate demise. It won't survive as it is and its leaders will not attempt any change. They see no reason to. They don't believe that political and economic history is against them. Theirs is the new way and the right way forward and there is no going back.
There will be a stronger Franco-German trading alliance. They see the dangers ahead. They can see splinters becoming cracks. This is the powerhouse core of Europe. Not this behemoth, getting ever bigger before it bursts, called the EU. European politics will determine the future of the EU and European politics is changing.

Everything from expansion to the shape of our economy has been pushed by UK Governments, we have shaped the EU massively.
Maggie Thatcher will be most upset that you are giving the EU all the credit for changing our economy.
If membership brought poverty and mass unemployment to "whole swathes" of the EU membership, but not us, why are we leaving and they are remaining?

Leavers argue that what we joined has changed beyond all recognition, and that it will never change.

jasetheace · May 25, 2019

Voted even more than that. Hardened in favour of Remain. But not solely about remain. We must face down the rise of populism (AKA facism) tweet by tweet, email by email, yard by yard and milkshake by milkshake. For the record, I see only a fag paper difference between the end games sought by the hard left and hard right (history informs us). Just slightly different forms of Gilead.

Lincoln Imp · May 25, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
There is a very good reason for your first point 2 - but clearly, despite having a Masters, you're not intelligent enough to realise it ( or to be able to count to four it seems ).

Just following this from the sidelines, but what does 'first point 2' mean? Was it about xenophobia? Sorry if I am being dim.

Also, and I'm sorry to mention it, but the tone of your post seems to have a lot of the sneeriness you accuse others of.

Pretty pink fairy · May 25, 2019

Klaas said:
Racist complains some people think they are better than others. Welcome to 2019.

No one's complaining , just more facts that you can't /won't accept , cheer up
regards
DR

Pretty pink fairy · May 25, 2019

drew said:
What majority? Thye majority did not vote for Brexit!

What did they vote for then :dunce:

regards
DR

Pretty pink fairy · May 25, 2019

nicko31 said:
A bit yes.

Leaving is an even worse idea than I thought in 2016

you need to think outside the box then :dunce:

regards
DR

Baldseagull · May 25, 2019

It's clear that many leavers have become more certain of their desire to leave the EU, but it is also clear that they have no rational arguments left for doing it, other than it was the result of the referendum, and it would damage democracy to not leave.
I would have more time for this argument if they were not so vehemently opposed to a second referendum to confirm whatever arrangements or lack of arrangements was/is what the country wants.

There is a picture of the EU as a foreign body imposing laws and rules on the UK that we have no say over and we don't want. If that were true, I would have voted Leave.
I can understand the vote to leave in 2016, there was a campaign saying it would all be easy and that the EU would roll over and give us all the benefits without any of the commitments, there was 30 years of tabloid tales of money wasting incompetence and nit picking rules, and no remain campaign highlighting the benefits, or that the things the EU was being blamed for were actually in our own Governments control, or that the EU had done them because the UK Government had successfully campaigned for those changes.
I see some claiming an equivalence between Leavers and Remainers to some extent, in that we both think the other is making a big mistake, and are convinced of our positions, that we are as bad as each other in not being open to the others argument. I don't see it like that, I am open to logical and reasoned argument, but not emotionally loaded ones, and I think the reverse is true of those who still think leaving is a great idea. No amount of Logic will destroy the feeling they get.

Westdene Seagull · May 25, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:
Just following this from the sidelines, but what does 'first point 2' mean? Was it about xenophobia? Sorry if I am being dim.

Also, and I'm sorry to mention it, but the tone of your post seems to have a lot of the sneeriness you accuse others of.

He posted two points numbered 2. As for my tone, it's based on a couple of his posts on another thread putting down a posters view point because he considered himself intelligent for having a masters.

GT49er · May 25, 2019

drew said:
What majority? The majority did not vote for Brexit!

Tell me, in what part of Cloud Cuckoo land is 52% not a majority?

(And before you come back with some twaddle about not including those who didn't vote, bear in mind that not voting is actually making a decision; it is a decision to go along with whatever those who do vote decide).

bazbha · May 25, 2019

Question for the remainers. Apparently we can't possibly leave with No Deal as it would result in economic Armageddon etc. So if Jeremy Corbyn was to win a narrow general election victory would we ignore that and demand another election? A lot of predictions say him being elected would result in far more economic damage than leaving the EU. We could call it a peoples vote maybe instead of another General Election? Or maybe we could say that because it was a narrow victory we should respect the people who lost & water down his policies so much it becomes meaningless?

Pretty pink fairy · May 25, 2019

Baldseagull said:
It's clear that many leavers have become more certain of their desire to leave the EU, but it is also clear that they have no rational arguments left for doing it, other than it was the result of the referendum, and it would damage democracy to not leave.
I would have more time for this argument if they were not so vehemently opposed to a second referendum to confirm whatever arrangements or lack of arrangements was/is what the country wants.

There is a picture of the EU as a foreign body imposing laws and rules on the UK that we have no say over and we don't want. If that were true, I would have voted Leave.
I can understand the vote to leave in 2016, there was a campaign saying it would all be easy and that the EU would roll over and give us all the benefits without any of the commitments, there was 30 years of tabloid tales of money wasting incompetence and nit picking rules, and no remain campaign highlighting the benefits, or that the things the EU was being blamed for were actually in our own Governments control, or that the EU had done them because the UK Government had successfully campaigned for those changes.
I see some claiming an equivalence between Leavers and Remainers to some extent, in that we both think the other is making a big mistake, and are convinced of our positions, that we are as bad as each other in not being open to the others argument. I don't see it like that, I am open to logical and reasoned argument, but not emotionally loaded ones, and I think the reverse is true of those who still think leaving is a great idea. No amount of Logic will destroy the feeling they get.

There's no argument to be had ,the vote was to leave people voted to leave the EU, people like you don't like that fact and have resorted to arguing about anything but leaving, it's all about being sore losers and trying to highlight anything that doesn't fit into your mind set ,
regards
DR

WATFORD zero · May 25, 2019

I just had a vision

She says she sees a hard line Brexiteer becoming PM

They will then say 'I didn't say I wanted no deal, I want a good deal, but no deal must be left on the table to get a good deal'.

Because that went so well last time :facepalm:

She also said we won't be leaving the EU before the end of the next ski season, so go ahead and book those early deals :wink:

GT49er · May 25, 2019

Baldseagull said:
I see some claiming an equivalence between Leavers and Remainers to some extent, in that we both think the other is making a big mistake, and are convinced of our positions, that we are as bad as each other in not being open to the others argument. I don't see it like that, I am open to logical and reasoned argument, but not emotionally loaded ones, and I think the reverse is true of those who still think leaving is a great idea. No amount of Logic will destroy the feeling they get.

And there in a few you words you have succinctly defined the arrogance of remainers, who think they're beings of superior intelligence influenced by logic (We are intelligent and logical, they aren't). It's a myth, of course; remainers are not intrinsically more intelligent than leavers. Sadly for democracy, too many of them believe they are.

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