[Politics] Brexit

Blue Valkyrie · Sep 16, 2019

beorhthelm said:
the Lib Dems postion is interesting, they support a 2nd referendum, unless they gain power (no sniggering) when they dont.

Just as the ERG Zealots set May's Red Lines for her and ignored ~50% of the country, so the Lib Dem Zealots now intend to ignore ~50% of the country.

52% or 48% of the vote does not give 100% of the say.

There is a compromise to be done. One Nation tories and a lot of Labour seem to get that. Sadly, the zealots don't.

Igzilla · Sep 16, 2019

highflyer said:
I'd call it opportunistic.

I do wonder what will happen to the Lib Dems once Brexit is no longer THE only issue driving politics (yes, that will eventually happen)
Can't help thinking they will be looking at each other thinking 'how did we all end up together' and unable to agree on any coherent policy agenda.

Some might say 'no change there then' mind you.

Why? They obviously have no chance of winning a majority in Parliament, so it's a valid tactic to stand as a absolute anti-Brexit party to have a chance of mopping up any Labour and Tory remain voters. Given that they won't win a majority, it would be stupid not to back a second referendum, especially as that's the direction Labour is heading, so it's better than not having a second referendum. I don't see why it's inconsistent?

I do agree that "after Brexit" they will still be in the wilderness of the centre ground, but Brexit will rumble on for at least 10 years as all the new trade deals are renegotiated (or not) and the fall out from that, as I suspect we will have to make some serious concessions, especially to the Americans.

drew · Sep 16, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
Just as the ERG Zealots set May's Red Lines for her and ignored ~50% of the country, so the Lib Dem Zealots now intend to ignore ~50% of the country.

52% or 48% of the vote does not give 100% of the say.

There is a compromise to be done. One Nation tories and a lot of Labour seem to get that. Sadly, the zealots don't.

The reality is that the Libdems are and always have been a party for remain. The mechanism to achieve that was, primarily, to get a second referendum as they would press for a remain vote but if they are in power on a manifesto of revoking A50 then by being in power that gives them the mandate to revoke. Blindingly obvious.

As for your maths, how about the fact that 17m voted for Brexit and 29m out of the electorate, didn't!!! Or 17m voted out and 49m didn't (now including those that don't have a vote).

As for compromise, that ship sailed when TM chose to use Brexit as a tory policy rather than cross party. Can't see any compromise between BJ and the EU getting through parliament. And then it's down to whether BJ will break the law.

ManOfSussex · Sep 16, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Showing your softer side there MoS. Never had you down as a fashion expert

I'm more of a Katie Derham expert. For example, ITV News, without Katie Derham, is like Olympic Weightlifting without David Vine commentating - what's the point of it anymore? Personally I don't watch either as a result. If it wasn't for her, 'Last Night Of The Prom's' would be on BBC4 on a Thursday night. She's highbrow, she's nearly 50, she looks younger than she is, she's totally out my league - I'm exactly the sort of person she'd have a extra martial affair with though. West Street in the 1990's - it was always the intelligent, well spoken ones at Sussex University.............

zefarelly · Sep 16, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
. Sadly, the zealots don't.

when it comes to Brexit, everyone's a zealot surely.

Chicken Run · Sep 16, 2019

daveinplzen said:
Well, they might deserve it (personally, I dont think so), but not sure the country does.

Interesting that you didn’t disagree that any deal tabled by the PM would probably be rejected though?

Oh and you’re right the country doesn’t deserve it!

Lincoln Imp · Sep 16, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
There is a compromise to be done. One Nation tories and a lot of Labour seem to get that. Sadly, the zealots don't.

The problem - if not necessarily all the blame - lies in the fact that the situation we are in was created by zealots. They wrote the script, established the agenda and organised the propaganda. When fighting a battle it is sometimes difficult not to be swayed by rules set by the aggressor. Fire with fire, etc.

Blue Valkyrie · Sep 16, 2019

zefarelly said:
when it comes to Brexit, everyone's a zealot surely.

Not at all.

There is an amazing compromise we could take - but it was attacked by ERG Zealots and People's Vote/Revoke Zealots from both sides.

All the Zealots realised they had to destroy any obvious compromise otherwise they were sunk.

ManOfSussex · Sep 16, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
Just as the ERG Zealots set May's Red Lines for her and ignored ~50% of the country, so the Lib Dem Zealots now intend to ignore ~50% of the country.

52% or 48% of the vote does not give 100% of the say.

There is a compromise to be done. One Nation tories and a lot of Labour seem to get that. Sadly, the zealots don't.

I'm of the opinion that The Lib Dem position on revocation is ultimately as extreme as The Brexit Party's 'big break' Brexit, or whatever no deal is called this week. Swinson stands as much chance of entering No.10 as Farage though. Neither position bring this disunited kingdom back together, but compromise is in short supply and everything is stuck. May aside, that's why every living former Prime Minister is now muting a further referendum as a result.

beorhthelm · Sep 16, 2019

Igzilla said:
Why? They obviously have no chance of winning a majority in Parliament, so it's a valid tactic to stand as a absolute anti-Brexit party to have a chance of mopping up any Labour and Tory remain voters. Given that they won't win a majority, it would be stupid not to back a second referendum, especially as that's the direction Labour is heading, so it's better than not having a second referendum. I don't see why it's inconsistent?

consistent would be supporting a 2nd referendum in which they would campaign to remain/revoke A50. perhaps this is simply to put clear water between them and Labour (all at sea), except they'd have to row back in any collation negotiations to the referendum position.

highflyer · Sep 16, 2019

zefarelly said:
when it comes to Brexit, everyone's a zealot surely.

Genuinely don't think I am, or ever have been (on Brexit, I am definitely chock full of zeal on various other political matters).

But I do seem to be a rarity.

zefarelly · Sep 16, 2019

the fact that this thread is fast approaching 10 000 pages says everything you need to know. everyones trying to force a shit sandwich down someone elses throat. the sooner it all ****s off forever the better.

daveinplzen · Sep 16, 2019

Chicken Run said:
Interesting that you didn’t disagree that any deal tabled by the PM would probably be rejected though?

Oh and you’re right the country doesn’t deserve it!

But who is rejecting the deals, the ERG have a lot of responsibility here..you cant keep blaming remainers, as the ERG are equally complicit

Westdene Seagull · Sep 16, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
I'm more of a Katie Derham expert. For example, ITV News, without Katie Derham, is like Olympic Weightlifting without David Vine commentating - what's the point of it anymore? Personally I don't watch either as a result. If it wasn't for her, 'Last Night Of The Prom's' would be on BBC4 on a Thursday night. She's highbrow, she's nearly 50, she looks younger than she is, she's totally out my league - I'm exactly the sort of person she'd have a extra martial affair with though. West Street in the 1990's - it was always the intelligent, well spoken ones at Sussex University.............

I do sometimes worry about you :kiss:

rippleman · Sep 16, 2019

Plooks said:
What utter bullshit. You think I am angry!? LMFAO. You are just butthurt your plans to destroy this country will fail and you and your racist leave chums will be found out.

So all leave voters are racists? :lolol:

You are proper daft.

rippleman · Sep 16, 2019

Here's a challenge.......no googling!!

Who said:

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected.

[..] And my view about the European Union has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners, but that I am in favour of democracy. And I think out of this story we have to find an answer, because I certainly don’t want to live in hostility to the European Union but I think they are building an empire there and they want us to be a part of that empire, and I don’t want that."

Hampden Park · Sep 16, 2019

rippleman said:
Here's a challenge.......no googling!!

Who said:

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected.

[..] And my view about the European Union has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners, but that I am in favour of democracy. And I think out of this story we have to find an answer, because I certainly don’t want to live in hostility to the European Union but I think they are building an empire there and they want us to be a part of that empire, and I don’t want that."

Johnny Rotten?

A1X · Sep 16, 2019

rippleman said:
Here's a challenge.......no googling!!

Who said:

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected.

[..] And my view about the European Union has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners, but that I am in favour of democracy. And I think out of this story we have to find an answer, because I certainly don’t want to live in hostility to the European Union but I think they are building an empire there and they want us to be a part of that empire, and I don’t want that."

Someone who didn't understand the EU?

zefarelly · Sep 16, 2019

Tony Benn . . . . and its not quite correct what he says. Nominees get appointed and approved by elected representitives, usually national leaders.. Arguably better than say our house of Lords.

Mo Gosfield · Sep 16, 2019

Here's another challenge.....( not too difficult )

Which political party was created to represent working people in their struggle against the political establishment. Central to the party was a belief in national democratic sovereignty and a profound hostility to imperialism.

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