How long until there is an Isis attack on the UK?

BrickTamland · Dec 4, 2015

In reference to the points raised about Corbyn all he has said is that negotiated peace needs to be brokered between those 'allied' against ISIS. Starting with Saudi Arabia. Cut off their funding and stop the flow of arms and make them containable. Until any of this is done bombing will achieve nothing other than some symbolic gesture, which in no way will justify the life that will be lost. (I accept any solution will involve loss of innocent life, but bombing without the aforementioned conditions will be no solution at all). The cartoon posted by looney above highlights the problem. Until the double standards applied to Saudi Arabia are put to an end all of this discussion of bombing is essentially meaningless (imo, of course).

heathgate · Dec 4, 2015

BrickTamland said:
In reference to the points raised about Corbyn all he has said is that negotiated peace needs to be brokered between those 'allied' against ISIS. Starting with Saudi Arabia. Cut off their funding and stop the flow of arms and make them containable. Until any of this is done bombing will achieve nothing other than some symbolic gesture, which in no way will justify the life that will be lost. (I accept any solution will involve loss of innocent life, but bombing without the aforementioned conditions will be no solution at all). The cartoon posted by looney above highlights the problem. Until the double standards applied to Saudi Arabia are put to an end all of this discussion of bombing is essentially meaningless (imo, of course).

....are you completely dim,.... do you not think the borders are being managed, do you not think the internet is being managed?, do you not think the rogue Saudi and Emirates funding streams is being managed?, do you not think that the oil and drug revenue streams are being managed?............. I hate to break it to you sonny effin Jim,.... but the joint military, political and intelligence services of nearly 70 countries are NOW fully engaged, your ideas have already been thought of some time back, and are being acted upon.

Stoo82 · Dec 4, 2015

But we have been attacking ISIS for a year now? Why would continuing to attack them, albeit in a different country make them more likely to attack us?

BrickTamland · Dec 4, 2015

heathgate said:
....are you completely dim,.... do you not think the borders are being managed, do you not think the internet is being managed?, do you not think the rogue Saudi and Emirates funding streams is being managed?, do you not think that the oil and drug revenue streams are being managed?............. I hate to break it to you sonny effin Jim,.... but the joint military, political and intelligence services of nearly 70 countries are NOW fully engaged, your ideas have already been thought of some time back, and are being acted upon.

I don't think the Saudi and Emirates funding streams are being managed because there is no evidence to suggest they are. The UK and US are in bed with Saudi and the like and denying it is plain stupidity. Read this from earlier in November http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...abia-and-the-UK-inists-Foreign-Secretary.html.

If the 'joint military, political and intelligence services of nearly 70 countries are now fully engaged' then this issue wouldn't last much longer. You've managed to completely miss the complications of the matter.

And for what it's worth I do think the borders and internet are being managed, hence why I didn't make use of them when arguing what we are currently not doing.

heathgate · Dec 4, 2015

BrickTamland said:
I don't think the Saudi and Emirates funding streams are being managed because there is no evidence to suggest they are. The UK and US are in bed with Saudi and the like and denying it is plain stupidity. Read this from earlier in November http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...abia-and-the-UK-inists-Foreign-Secretary.html.

If the 'joint military, political and intelligence services of nearly 70 countries are now fully engaged' then this issue wouldn't last much longer. You've managed to completely miss the complications of the matter.

And for what it's worth I do think the borders and internet are being managed, hence why I didn't make use of them when arguing what we are currently not doing.

Its not the state direct thats providing funds for IS for gods sake, but it is certainly some wealthy but fanatical components of the gulf states who supply some factions in this mess, and always have done, it isnt a recent issue.... the west is closely aligned militarily and economically with the gulf states, its a needs must scenario ... but that doesnt mean it turns a blind eye to activities in support of these monsters who are killin g westerners,.. and anyone else for that matter.

easynow · Dec 4, 2015

I trust our inteligence services are doing their job.

BrickTamland · Dec 4, 2015

heathgate said:
Its not the state direct thats providing funds for IS for gods sake, but it is certainly some wealthy but fanatical components of the gulf states who supply some factions in this mess, and always have done, it isnt a recent issue.... the west is closely aligned militarily and economically with the gulf states, its a needs must scenario ... but that doesnt mean it turns a blind eye to activities in support of these monsters who are killin g westerners,.. and anyone else for that matter.

Sure, the 'state' isn't directly funding 'some factions' (i think the faction you're looking for is called ISIS) but individuals high up within the Saudi state certainly are. I'm aware it isn't a recent issue, none of this is hence the complicity. The UK (along with our allies whoever they are) has not done anywhere near enough to challenge the Gulf states role in backing extremist sunni groups. It creates a hypocrite stance which doesn't help in trying to create unity against isis.

The 'needs must' argument is only tenable is you're talking about economics in regard to arms deals. Not good enough if attempting to end this mess (and save lives of innocents everywhere) is the primary concern.

W.C. · Dec 5, 2015

Bozza said:
I certainly don't believe that this increased military engagement makes us any more likely to be the target of terrorist attacks - that is already highly likely.

That's a fair point but then these nut jobs certainly don"t play fair and they are also pretty good at 'spinning' things to their own ends. These bombings may not make a whole lot of difference to our level of involvement but what with the debate, it being a very big current news story, they may very well use that to their 'advantage'; Attack, say it's in retaliation for the recent air strikes. The Japanese journalists beheaded after Japan promised money to fight ISIS being one good example.

Some people getting on very high horses (not yourself) over a fairly reasonable thing to wonder out loud.

cunning fergus · Dec 5, 2015

Phat Baz 68 said:
These scumbags are **** all to do with REAL Muslims, they hide behind Islam using it as an excuse to carry out acts of terror and barbarism
throughout the world, real Muslims live their life peacefuly by the five pillars of Islam of The Quran these stinking pigs don't.
Ive got a lot of Muslim friends in London and up North who are terrified to even come out of their houses and they don't blame us in any way.

I know you want to believe that, however it's not true is it?

These Muslims committing these acts consider themselves as the true Muslims, dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate firstly in the Middle East, then in Africa and Europe. They ultimately do not want to live in non Muslim environments, or associate with non Muslims, that's why the have a word to identify non Muslim people.

They are not hiding behind Islam, on the contrary it is their unbending commitment to their religious ideology that compels them to commit these acts, and with no regard to their own death.

Saying they are not true Muslims is absurd, it's like saying the SS were not true fascists.

BadFish · Dec 5, 2015

cunning fergus said:
I know you want to believe that, however it's not true is it?

These Muslims committing these acts consider themselves as the true Muslims, dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate firstly in the Middle East, then in Africa and Europe. They ultimately do not want to live in non Muslim environments, or associate with non Muslims, that's why the have a word to identify non Muslim people.

They are not hiding behind Islam, on the contrary it is their unbending commitment to their religious ideology that compels them to commit these acts, and with no regard to their own death.

Saying they are not true Muslims is absurd, it's like saying the SS were not true fascists.

I am not sure there can ever be a 'true' version of a religion. Religion is all about what one takes from it. What is 'true' to one person is often not true to another. This is why we end up with so many different religions and sub sections of them worshipping the same god.

The Muslims i have met are similar to those Phat Baz so i understand his point.

alfredmizen · Dec 5, 2015

Phat Baz 68 said:
These scumbags are **** all to do with REAL Muslims, they hide behind Islam using it as an excuse to carry out acts of terror and barbarism
throughout the world, real Muslims live their life peacefuly by the five pillars of Islam of The Quran these stinking pigs don't.
Ive got a lot of Muslim friends in London and up North who are terrified to even come out of their houses and they don't blame us in any way.

yes im sure they're all lovely and nicey , nicey, then they go and kill 14 people just like in california and everyone is ''shocked'' that such a ''normal'' couple who werent ''radical'' at all could do such a thing.

beorhthelm · Dec 5, 2015

cunning fergus said:
I know you want to believe that, however it's not true is it?

These Muslims committing these acts consider themselves as the true Muslims, dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate firstly in the Middle East, then in Africa and Europe. They ultimately do not want to live in non Muslim environments, or associate with non Muslims, that's why the have a word to identify non Muslim people.

They are not hiding behind Islam, on the contrary it is their unbending commitment to their religious ideology that compels them to commit these acts, and with no regard to their own death.

Saying they are not true Muslims is absurd, it's like saying the SS were not true fascists.

your argument is false, most muslims dont give a thought to an Islamic caliphate, those that do are following one interpretation of many. its like saying all Germans are members of the SS because they speak german.

Soulman · Dec 5, 2015

alfredmizen said:
yes im sure they're all lovely and nicey , nicey, then they go and kill 14 people just like in california and everyone is ''shocked'' that such a ''normal'' couple who werent ''radical'' at all could do such a thing.

I think that is the most worrying thing, time and again we hear of these murders and the families come out and are shocked. The murderers of Lee Rigby were lovely lads, the blokes that went to Syria, the terrorists in other countries, the communities were shocked and had no idea.
Now let's assume this is the truth, how many other "shocks" are among us.

alfredmizen · Dec 5, 2015

Soulman said:
I think that is the most worrying thing, time and again we hear of these murders and the families come out and are shocked. The murderers of Lee Rigby were lovely lads, the blokes that went to Syria, the terrorists in other countries, the communities were shocked and had no idea.
Now let's assume this is the truth, how many other "shocks" are among us.

Just like the 3 schoolgirls from bethnal green who had never been exposed to radicalism at home , were good girls etc and then we saw a picture of her ASYLUM SEEKER father burning the starts and stripes at a demo

Soulman · Dec 5, 2015

alfredmizen said:
Just like the 3 schoolgirls from bethnal green who had never been exposed to radicalism at home , were good girls etc and then we saw a picture of her ASYLUM SEEKER father burning the starts and stripes at a demo

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Well the main killer of Lee Rigby was at many Choudary rallies.
It amazes me how many get upset at nationalist demos that oppose, yet how many people that they are demonstrating against have been blown up, beheaded etc by them. None to my knowledge.

cunning fergus · Dec 5, 2015

beorhthelm said:
your argument is false, most muslims dont give a thought to an Islamic caliphate, those that do are following one interpretation of many. its like saying all Germans are members of the SS because they speak german.

No it's not, I am not talking about all Muslims, I am talking about "these Muslims committing these acts".

They are undoubtedly Muslims, and they are undoubtedly committed to their religious ideology. It is the primary factor behind why they are so opposed to liberal western states.

These Muslims don't want to live in liberal western countries, because they can't reconcile Islamic doctrine and western values.

Other Muslims are happy to live here but many tacitly support similar aspects of conservative Islamic theology, which is why many in this country (and in the west) happily practice their faith in gender segregated places of worship.

At some point in this conflict people will have to decide what they are for................

cunning fergus · Dec 5, 2015

BadFish said:
I am not sure there can ever be a 'true' version of a religion. Religion is all about what one takes from it. What is 'true' to one person is often not true to another. This is why we end up with so many different religions and sub sections of them worshipping the same god.

The Muslims i have met are similar to those Phat Baz so i understand his point.

That "truth" is in the eye of the beholder isn't it.........these Muslims committing these acts of terrorism are Muslim.

No doubt there are Muslims not committing acts of terrorism too, thanks for reminding me.

As we queue up at the Amex today to get patted down and have our bags searched for guns and bombs I will reflect on this line again.

alfredmizen · Dec 5, 2015

cunning fergus said:
No it's not, I am not talking about all Muslims, I am talking about "these Muslims committing these acts".

They are undoubtedly Muslims, and they are undoubtedly committed to their religious ideology. It is the primary factor behind why they are so opposed to liberal western states.

These Muslims don't want to live in liberal western countries, because they can't reconcile Islamic doctrine and western values.

Other Muslims are happy to live here but many tacitly support similar aspects of conservative Islamic theology, which is why many in this country (and in the west) happily practice their faith in gender segregated places of worship.

At some point in this conflict people will have to decide what they are for................

This , particularly this part

Phat Baz 68 · Dec 5, 2015

cunning fergus said:
I know you want to believe that, however it's not true is it?

These Muslims committing these acts consider themselves as the true Muslims, dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate firstly in the Middle East, then in Africa and Europe. They ultimately do not want to live in non Muslim environments, or associate with non Muslims, that's why the have a word to identify non Muslim people.

They are not hiding behind Islam, on the contrary it is their unbending commitment to their religious ideology that compels them to commit these acts, and with no regard to their own death.

Saying they are not true Muslims is absurd, it's like saying the SS were not true fascists.

You have just literally said what I Said in the highlighted statement.

The words " consider " themselves being the most relevant. Saying they are not true Muslims is absurb ? Why actually is that then Oh Oracle of Islam
So what your saying is all Muslims are terrororists and all should be treated as such.

Phat Baz 68 · Dec 5, 2015

We seem to have a lot of Muslim haters on these pages don't we ?

Maybe you won't cheer then when any of Muslim players or future ones score then eh ?

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