- Sep 3, 2010
- 6,523
A thread I'll ignore before it gets locked. You can see the direction of travel this is going to take without having Potter's degree in touchy feely bollocks to know the outcome.
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[Albion] 'Football banning order for Antisemitic abuse'
- Thread starter aolstudios
- Start date
- Apr 5, 2014
- 28,543
Ah, okay. That clears things up a bit. Thanks for looking it up.
I've often said how the Jews are an astonishing race. When you think of all the genocidal attempts in history, they have still kept their identity even two thousand years after the displacement. It's why I'm always keen to correct the assumption of it being a religious allegiance only.
aolstudios
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #43
Have you read the thread?
- Apr 5, 2014
- 28,543
I don't know why it would be locked. Folk have been talking about the charges and I have added the concern that sometimes people may miss the racially aggravated side of things thus giving further validation to the seriousness of it.
@Weststander then kindly took the time to correct and assure me that the Prosecution Service is aware and has account of it.
No thread locking needed.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 8,697
Agree - not everyone is aware of the distinction between being Jewish and practicing Judaism. I’m Jewish but don’t practice Judaism but that distinction is not really relevant here.
I probably should have said Antisemitism is a specific ‘hate crime’ - that would have been more accurate…
As I said in my answer to you, “Antisemitism’ is a specific form of discrimination/hate crime targeting Jews because they are Jews so it does not need to be broken down - it encompasses religious and racial attacks because the attacks by definition are targeting Jews - it matters not if it is racial or religious, the Law treats both racial and religious motivations as part and parcel of hate crime in the Sentencing guidelines on aggravated crime anyway. (See link I posted above)
(Btw Whether Jews are a ‘race’, ‘ethnicity’ or a ‘people’ has been the subject of much debate!)
Hope that helps.
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Honest questions here, so please bear with me.
Is there a Jewish bloodline? If so, how can people not of that bloodline be part of that race? If there is not a bloodline then is being Jewish simply a choice of religion?
It could also be helpful to have some idea of the comment made by the convicted woman, if only to guide people to what is, and is not, considered racist, anti semetic/illegal. I fully expect to be told that ’if you need to ask then you are the above’ etc etc, but clarity should be of the utmost importance in legal matters.
All Four Grounds
Active member
- Apr 20, 2025
- 84
It’s actually an ethnicity based on language which is why the Oxford English Dictionary definition of a Semite is:
But obviously in common usage anti-Semites are prejudiced against Jews (or who they believe to be Jews) and in theory might not be Islamophobic but invariably will be too. But Judaism isn’t a race it a religion. Genetically speaking there’s only one race: the human race but semantically and practically speaking race is defined by ethnicity due to skin pigmentation which when you think about it is very silly. Racism is silly but of course like all forms of abuse it can be very hurtful and indeed even deadly.
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- Jan 18, 2009
- 5,068
Strictly in interests of open discourse and opinion, i’m pretty sure Sammy Davis Jr, Marilyn Monroe, Elizabeth Taylor and even The Don’s daughter Ivanka converted to judaism.
in addition Semite and Semitic can be used to reference Jews and Arabs, amongst other peoples from the Middle East. Purely in terms of general context the genesis (no pun intended) of language and words can change over time and also have multiple interpretations, subject to cultural orthodoxy.
The term “coloured” is offensive here if used to describe an ethnically black individual whilst in South Africa it’s not, similarly the US routinely describes its historic black resident population as African American yet such an approach here would be considered offensive perhaps even racist.
i’m not sure who sets the rules on language and its usage these days but for me intent is key. Not everyone understands the rules, albeit that’s not a defence of the individual that’s been banned.
It’s irrelevant to the law, yes. But it provides some context as a news item. Surely you can understand this?I wasn’t reading anything into any body’s comment - seriously
I simply said context is irrelevant - racial abuse is racial abuse.
(If people have misunderstood that, or me in stating that have taken offence then sincere apologies but that’s the law)
So, it seems to be based upon language, skin colour and religion, or a mix of?
- Oct 20, 2022
- 8,697
Yes, to Judaism.
But the idea that people can become Jewish simply by religious conversion is contentious in some Jewish communities that hold the view for example that, Jewishness is a familial identity passed down only through the mother.
As has been explained numerous times on this forum, ‘Judaism’ is the religion practiced by Jews. If you are a secular/non-religious Jew, you are still a Jew because being Jewish is more than and doesn’t necessarily include religious faith. About 45% of the Jewish population in Israel for example are secular Jews (do not practice Judaism).
Can a Person Convert to Judaism?
www.jpost.com
Muddying the waters on the meaning of ‘antisemitism’.
‘Antisemitism’ is discrimination of Jews - it does not matter if they are Mizrahi Jews from North Africa or from muslim Middle Eastern Countries, Eastern European Jews or Israeli Jews - Antisemitism is a term that ONLY applies to discrimination against Jews.
There is no ‘cultural orthodoxy’ or moveable feast on that.
- ‘antisemitism‘ is not a feature of a person like the colour of skin or race, it is a behaviour. But yes, the definition of ‘antisemitism’ has had nuanced interpretations and still does.
Well yes, because it refers to the large proportion of Black people in the US who have their origins in Africa.
Would be nonsense to call a UK resident an African-American if their background and origin is the UK and Caribbean - not sure it would be racist, just ill-informed!
Yes, intent is the key - If a person is charged under the Law for a hate crime, the nuances and “rules” on how we use language is somewhat irrelevant, it’s whether the attack was racially or religiously motivated. Sometimes that’s hard to prove.
What is clear I think is all decent minded people understand that racial and religious hatred is WRONG and the Law rightly punishes those that are proven to have outwardly expressed those sentiments in any form..
Although as @chip said above, sadly, the Law doesn’t excise those sentiments from society or individuals, instead they become suppressed and indirect or institutionalised which is just as damaging. But you can’t legislate against intrinsic thought or belief (thankfully!) or we’d be locked up just wishing someone would go jump off a cliff
- Oct 20, 2022
- 8,697
Surely you can understand that whether someone is sitting by minding their own business or having an all out fight with the person that is subsequently charged with racism is neither here nor there to the charge and actual context of antisemitism. The aggravated crime is ‘religious or racial hatred’ - that’s not to be confused with the primary crime of assault or Breach of the Peace etc. where contexts, justifications and behaviour of the victim are relevant subtexts to the narrative. The ‘aggravation’ of racial/religious hatred is a sentencing guidelines issue and has no bearing on the behaviour of the victim only their religious/ethnic identity is relevant.
It is a valid observation.
If you disagree, then we will just have to agree to disagree.
I made my point several times now and just repeating myself.
aolstudios
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #53
Nothing to do with common usage. Antisemitism is a word coined in the 19th century to specifically & only mean Jew hate. By a proud Jew hater.
Look it up
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Sicut semper.
Once again, without knowing what was said…….blah blah blah…..
aolstudios
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #57
If there was one poster who could be reliably predicted to dismiss Jew hate...
Just think that people deciding that a punishment is too light is a bit daft when you do not know the details of the crime. Not all offenders get the same punishment for the same crime, context is taken into account by a judge or magistrates. In this case we do not know what was said.
- Apr 5, 2014
- 28,543
I would probably refer you back to Zeb to give the most detailed understanding of this. I have knowledge, but he can add much more details. Needless to say, the reply from 'All Four Grounds' is very wide of the mark. I always benchmark things by saying that Jews have been persecuted throughout history on account of being Jewish primarily, and not because of their religion as much as that would have been a major part. But many Jews are secular and do not practise Judaism. So the idea that it is a religion would, unintentionally, dismiss a large percentage as not being Jewish.
