AstroSloth
Well-known member
- Dec 29, 2020
- 1,778
And if you swap all of our losses and draws for wins we would have won the league.
[Football] If Palace can't play in the Europa League
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AstroSloth
Well-known member
- Dec 29, 2020
- 1,778
Veltman isn't a first XI played though. Kadioglu should be ours, but as for most of our players he was injured for most of the season.
Their first XI is stronger than ours only because they actually got to use it for large parts of the season, I don't think we ever started with our strongest XI.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 14,435
I would say "Solid season" is about as close to "meh" as it's possible to get.
Mc Nulty glowingly references 5 individual players in his review of Palace
"Exciting in attack with Eberechi Eze, Ismaila Sarr and Jean-Philippe Mateta,
solid in defence with Marc Guehi, and with the outstanding Adam Wharton in midfield, Palace have been such a good watch."
And praises their manager:
"Glasner has proved an inspired appointment and if they keep this team together, it is onwards and upwards for the Eagles."
I would say his review of Palace supports my statement of superb season, far more than the semantic gymnastics, you're going to need to pull off to make our "Solid season" anything other than "about as good as expected".
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 14,435
The discussion is about their last season, and whether it was a superb season.
I think they have a very good first 11, better than what we've been putting out and you seem to agree.
If Kadioglu proves to be a better right back than Munoz, then I will be over the moon.
But that's a debate for next season.
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,777
At Christmas after seventeen games, they were twelve points behind Aston Villa in sixth, eleven points behind Man City in seventh. They finished thirteen points behind Aston Villa in sixth and twelve points behind Notts Forest in seventh. So they didn't close the gap on the ECL or European spots in the later twenty one games, it actually got fractionally larger. At Christmas they were level on points with Everton having played a game more and they finished only five points better off. This champions league form of theirs saw them catch up a massive one point and two goals on us.
They are a twelfth placed team who played for the majority of the season like a twelfth placed team. They are like Forest in that they have one way of playing and look very good when it is tactically appropriate. Unfortunately that happened twice against us and again against under par Fulham and Villa in the FA Cup. I can't comment on the final. I wasn't going to watch that! Although it seems from the reporting that they were handed the win by the ref and VAR bottling a blindingly obvious red card decision. That won't be remembered. They won the FA Cup. Good luck to their fans. I'm seething with jealousy that it wasn't us seeing our team do it, but it's a knock out competition that says very little about consistent quality.
Other than Palace: Stoke, Portsmouth, Cardiff, Wigan, Hull, Watford and Leicester are the last seven non 'big six' teams to make the FA Cup final and three of them even won it.
My discussion with you started with me questioning your description of our season as ‘disappointing’ in neutral’s eyes. I haven’t commented on how you’ve described Palace’s season.
“Disappointing” has shifted to “meh” (which is apparently equivalent to solid with plenty of promise) to “as good as expected”.
So to repeat my original comment who are all the pundits describing our season as disappointing?
Interestingly, Opta have Forest as massively overachieving their actual play this season, and Palace underachieving...
Which Premier League Teams Finished in Wrong Position According to Opta's Expected Points Table? | Opta Analyst
We analyse the 2024-25 Premier League expected points table; put crudely, what the table ‘should’ look like based on each team’s underlying numbers.
theanalyst.com
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 14,435
fair enough, I retract disappointing.
Lets settle on Solid shall we?
Now then, find me someone who doesn't think Palace had a better season.
theboybilly
Well-known member
Is that thexOlise that spent most of his Palace career in the treatment room?
Genuine question without some gotcha or hidden agenda - if Palace HADN'T won the FA Cup, how would you compare their season to ours? Better? Worse?
For a start we play very different formations.
In our formation Eze would play more on the left and as good as Eze is I would pick Mitoma. It is a debate between Welbeck and mateta.
If we were having wing backs then you can’t say whether kadioglu or Pervis would be better. Pervis has previously been in many peoples’ team of the year. Mitchel has not even got a cap.
Wharton over Ayari is fine.
But an eleven is made up of eleven players and despite us not being able to field our best eleven once all season whereas they have many times we have finished above them quite comfortably. So how on earth is their best eleven better than ours when our often mostly second string has finished so far above them in the table?
If you want to know what a good side is then I would suggest looking at the top of the premier league rather than the bottom half of the premier league.
When my mates were playing in national league north they won the FA trophy. Does that make them better than all the teams in the national league? Of course not. Did they beat some of them on their way to winning? Yes. Does it mean they are therefore a better team? No. Sometimes in football the best team on the day does not win a match.
This is so wilfully ignorant, that I'm not sure why I'm bothering. But...
Why are you comparing their best defender Guehi to Webster, rather than Van Hecke?
Why are you comparing their best midfielder Wharton to Ayari, rather than Baleba?
Why are you comparing their best attacker Eze to Joao Pedro, rather than Mitoma?
This is why I am convinced forest will be going down next season (or at least in a fight).Interestingly, Opta have Forest as massively overachieving their actual play this season, and Palace underachieving...
Which Premier League Teams Finished in Wrong Position According to Opta's Expected Points Table? | Opta Analyst
We analyse the 2024-25 Premier League expected points table; put crudely, what the table ‘should’ look like based on each team’s underlying numbers.
It is remarkable that even with by far the most injuries in the league and never having a settled side that we have produced the season we have so basically where we should be in the league based on performances of often second string. I am genuinely excited for what we could do if we can actually get our strongest eleven on the pitch!
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 14,435
Marginally better, but with all of the caveats that everyone has already mentioned. i.e injuries, new manager, new signings.
Glasner has been impressive, dismissing his tactics as hodgson-like is massively missing what he has done with them.
They've gone from a home hoping to nick the points, to a team expecting to win from their counter-attacking play.
They destroyed Fulham and Villa in the cup, rode their luck in the final sure, but it was still an impressive result.
Worse, obviously. But did win the FA Cup, so it was better. Same applies to Spurs.
In the end, no relegation+major trophy > 8th+no major trophy
Official Old Man
Uckfield Seagull
Yes, but they DID win the FA Cup so their season was one bit of silverware better than ours. You could say the same about Spurs. Lucky not to be relegated but I bet you'd swop our season with either of theirs.
In the same way our season was better than anyone who finished 9th or lower with those two exeptions.
I think this belongs here. It can be applied to a single game of football so easily.
“Spurs deserved to win the Europa because the defended so well and united were awful and they took their chance when it came” now Ange says they had an outstanding season.
Reality. Spurs were horrific. Could not complete a pass then when the chance came the played kicked it directly away from goal. It hit an opposition arm and went in. Easy run to the final hardly playing anyone decent.
“Palace deserved to win the cup final with a brilliant display”
Reality. City battered them but finished like clowns. That was against eleven men and they should have been against 10 for well over and hour. The player not sent off was man of the match. Easy run to final.
“Spurs deserved to win the Europa because the defended so well and united were awful and they took their chance when it came” now Ange says they had an outstanding season.
Reality. Spurs were horrific. Could not complete a pass then when the chance came the played kicked it directly away from goal. It hit an opposition arm and went in. Easy run to the final hardly playing anyone decent.
“Palace deserved to win the cup final with a brilliant display”
Reality. City battered them but finished like clowns. That was against eleven men and they should have been against 10 for well over and hour. The player not sent off was man of the match. Easy run to final.
Attachments
Exactly. You can't put 'Finished 8th' in the trophy cabinet. And unlike a major trophy you can't boast about it for years afterwards when (almost) everybody will have forgotten which also-ran position we finished in.
Tell that to the Forest ChairmanInterestingly, Opta have Forest as massively overachieving their actual play this season, and Palace underachieving...
Which Premier League Teams Finished in Wrong Position According to Opta's Expected Points Table? | Opta Analyst
We analyse the 2024-25 Premier League expected points table; put crudely, what the table ‘should’ look like based on each team’s underlying numbers.
Has anyone seen Nuno alive since Sunday?
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,777
Yes, Forest's success looks like it's built on sand. Well organised, excellent in defence, lucky with injuries, underrated midfielders playing very well in a system that's designed to play to their strengths, a striker hitting unprecedented form. They've had a great year, but the sale or absence of one or two would very likely see them return to the mean. They will need to adapt while in a position of strength and David Moyes post European season at West Ham shows how difficult it is to keep beating the numbers.Interestingly, Opta have Forest as massively overachieving their actual play this season, and Palace underachieving...
Which Premier League Teams Finished in Wrong Position According to Opta's Expected Points Table? | Opta Analyst
We analyse the 2024-25 Premier League expected points table; put crudely, what the table ‘should’ look like based on each team’s underlying numbers.
Interestingly, Palace's perceived under achievement was largely the result of that very slow start to the season when Wharton wasn't fit and Eze was in and out. Understat has them 5.16 points under their expected points by the season end, but at Christmas, they were 6.18 points under, so in the latter part of the league season, they have very slightly over achieved, but not enough to make up for the first couple of months, when they were playing okay, but not scoring many and conceding too easily.
Tactically they are similar to Forest: organised defence, fast counter attack and well drilled by decent tacticians over when to spark the press. The two finished 17th and 18th on possession stats: https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/possession/Premier-League-Stats. It's explosiveness added to the previous low block percentage football that we all recognise. It's given them both good seasons, but I don't buy the recent media reports about the death of the Guardiola established pattern that you win by dominating possession. This season's top four finishers were also the top four for highest possession. Howe and Emery's teams who make up the top six are also both quite capable of dominating possession when their pragmatic managers consider it the best option. Palace and Forest both look like teams that, the occasional worldie aside, will struggle to score if you play like an away team against them. They, along with Fulham and Ipswich, make up the small number of teams who have earned more points away than at home this season. (We played like the home team at both of their grounds but we can but hope that FH has learned his lesson from the results that led to).