GT49er
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[News] China protests over Zero-Covid policy
- Thread starter Swansman
- Start date
Regardless of your opinion on their current/recent governments, the evidence from western Europe, Britain, America and numerous other countries suggests it is entirely possible for millions of people to get out of poverty without some sort of kelptocratic, all controlling dictatorship.
It would be hard to govern China for the last 30years and not acheive the sort of growth they've seen. It's not some sort of miracle, it just shows how catastrophically badly run they were for most of the preceding two centuries.
- Thread starter
- #83
Well, I think they did indeed come true to a certain extent and that the rest is to follow. In 1984 their nation is constantly at war (which we are as well, a cultural war) that makes the people think they have to accept and respect the flaws of their society because at least they're not as bad/in a bad situation as their "enemies". We love Big Brother, and most want it to grow stronger and more powerful.
“Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer, and above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds. To keep them in control was not difficult…. All that was required of them was a primitive patriotism which could be appealed to whenever it was necessary to make them accept longer working hours or shorter rations. And when they became discontented, as they sometimes did, their discontentment led nowhere, because being without general ideas, they could only focus it on petty specific grievances.”
Heavy physical work aside (for most people), it sounds very, very similar to the society we live in.
- Thread starter
- #84
Evidence from western Europe, Britain, America and so forth also shows that democracy (at least in modern times) won't help anyone get out of poverty because every government makes it more difficult for the poor and easier for the rich, creating larger and larger differences between those who have and those who doesn't.
Yeah they were poorly run in the sense that they were inefficiently run. Now they've learned from us that the best and easiest way to create growth is (neo)-colonisation and robbery.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,872
Back to the original point of the thread, I would like to believe that the Chinese protests over zero-tolerance for Covid is a sign of some kind of an oriental version of ‘arab spring’ but Tiananmen Square serves as a reminder for me as to how the Chinese authorities deal with protestors. The lockdown policy’s continuing impact on China’s economy will see soon how well those 500 million Chinese workers and their families continue to stay out of poverty, the price they apparently paid for civil liberties.
By "every government", and "modern times", you of course actually mean "those examples that support my argument".
They were poorly run in the sense that millions of people were killed and had their lives destroyed for no reason.
Arbitrarily adding "neo" to the start of random words is normally a sign that reason has left the building some time ago.
And you're a total contrarian.So do I.
To me getting some 500 million out of poverty is worth more than having the free speech to say "we need to reduce poverty" with no one listening or doing anything. In pretty much every Western world, since the latest wave of the richer getting richer started in our neo-liberal new management societies in the 1980s, most people have said "those who earn the least should maybe earn some more and the richest percentage should perhaps pay taxes". Left wing, "centrist", right-wing parties have all shrugged and said no. Is a vote that doesn't matter any better than not having a vote at all? Is a false sense of democracy better than no democracy at all? As I see it - the difference is very small.
You're a 50+ year old who can't stop yourself from personal attacks. Perhaps the "grow up" stuff is something you should try yourself first before suggesting it to others
If the UK had China's human rights record and lack of free speech you'd be all over us. But on some other forum, since NSC wouldn't exist in this form.
- Thread starter
- #88
There's a wealth of numbers showing that regardless which party people voted for since the 1980s, it has become more difficult to afford housing, wages are not following inflation and that differences between the richest and poorest have only grown. I'm sure you can find one or two exceptions that could prove that it is easier today for a working class person in the western world to get a house and a sufficiently paid job than it was 30 or 40 years ago, but it certainly isn't the norm.
Yeah, just like here in the west millions were killed and had their lives destroyed for no reasons.
The reason I used the phrase neo-colonisation rather than colonisation is because that is what they are doing. Of course I understand that the phrase doesn't sit well with English people as you'd like to believe that you stopped the colonisation stuff a long time ago and are now part of the holiest and most moral country in the world, but in reality colonisation kept going in a new shape, frequently labelled neo-colonisation and no amount of patriotic "we're the most moral people in the world" pride from Brits, Swedes or Chinese is going to change the fact that we continue to systematically rob and abuse third world-countries.
The Chinese are certainly abusing many third world countries. You should see how involved they are in Africa for example.
They keep the internment and genocide at home though.
So to be clear, democracy is responsible for diverging wealth levels in Western countries since the late 70s, but not for any improvements made in those countries in other respects or other time periods.
Natch.
How many of those millions of people killed in the West had the vote?
No, you (and all the other batshit conspiracy nuts) wack "neo" on the start of words to make them sound technical and beyond the understanding of normal people. There's no worthwhile distinction between colonialism as practiced by Britain and any other countries throughout history and that practiced now.
Raising tens of millions of people’s standards of living is a good thing on one hand, a progress trap on the other.
As it stands China is one of the worst polluters on the planet. Having tens of millions of people now wanting cars, mobile phones, a modern diet, using more fossil fuel etc creates waste, pollution and in increased carbon footprint. On a scale that makes a big difference. And the west has played a huge part in advocating this lifestyle.
They should be encouraging people to live less complicated, less impactful lives. We all should. Not bringing everyone up to the same planet destroying levels we currently enjoy.
I don’t want to see people in poverty but nor do I think we should all be striving for more more more!
Chinese growth is not necessarily a good thing.
As it stands China is one of the worst polluters on the planet. Having tens of millions of people now wanting cars, mobile phones, a modern diet, using more fossil fuel etc creates waste, pollution and in increased carbon footprint. On a scale that makes a big difference. And the west has played a huge part in advocating this lifestyle.
They should be encouraging people to live less complicated, less impactful lives. We all should. Not bringing everyone up to the same planet destroying levels we currently enjoy.
I don’t want to see people in poverty but nor do I think we should all be striving for more more more!
Chinese growth is not necessarily a good thing.
- Thread starter
- #92
The UK, and a lot of western countries, has equally shite human rights record as China, expect we prefer going to other countries and abuse human rights rather than doing it at home.
I'm already all over it, because I'm not a supremacist (or as it is frequently referred to: "patriot", or pro-West, pro-Europe-or-whatever-shite-region) of any sort because I escaped that form of brainwashing. Sweden is shit, the UK is shit, China is shit, the US is shit, Finland is shit. To believe elsewise you have to listen to the brainwashing that tells it isn't the case, and then spend your life picking peanuts out of poop to continue believing in the myths that we are superior to others. I don't do that.
That will probably be the stupidest sentence typed on the internet today. Well done.
That really does give that poster away as being very ignorant of Chinese history indeed.
Of course the Brits have acted appallingly in the past and still do in some territories. Of course the gap between poor and rich is widening but Jiminy Cricket! He’s a daft lad .
- Thread starter
- #95
No, democracy is not responsible for divering wealth levels, because there is no democracy.
Many of those people killed in the West had the vote. It didn't help them.
Neocolonialism is a well-established expression which is also quite useful in pointing out the difference of how colonialism was done in the past and how it is done now. It might - perhaps - be beyond the understanding of normal people, but it is well within the understanding of a large number of people.
- Thread starter
- #96
Yes of course Western supremacists feel that way. No surprise.
We're all very good at overlooking or scale down the amount of suffering we've caused.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,315
what pray has delivered increasing wealth then? a couple of generations ago the average person lived in standards we'd consider absolute poverty today. wasnt long ago something as mundane as central heating was preserve of affluent in very modern homes, now its ubiquitous and we discuss whether set to 18 or 20 deg. what has allowed this jump in living standards?
- Thread starter
- #99
You might want to remove the foil from your cat and perhaps lose a few kilos though I understand that it is probably easy to bring a big bag home when you're done with your McDonalds night shift.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,872
For the sake of those not wanting to do their own research:
Human Rights in China
www.amnesty.org
Human Rights in China
Human rights in China
Stay up to date on the state of human rights in China with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.
www.amnesty.org