Razzoo
Well-known member
In an effort to be inclusive the NZ selectors have had to exclude a woman from the women's team and that is a travesty.
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[Other Sport] Transgender woman selected for NZ Olympic team
- Thread starter Postman Pat
- Start date
nickbrighton
Well-known member
- Feb 19, 2016
- 1,934
I am struggling to illustrate what I am about to write with clarity
It is difficult to have a conversation these days regarding differences between the different ethnicity, gender, sexuality, sex etc of people in general, let alone specifically regarding sport, without falling foul of the equality and inclusivity argument
It is an undeniable fact that CIS Males are by and large, stronger and faster than CIS Females. Its why you don't see athletics races, throwing competitions, swimming. boxing, rowing events, football or rugby , hockey, basketball matches etc at almost any level (other than at pre teen level)where CIS males are in direct competition with CIS Females. It simply wouldn't be fair the male would win a massive majority of the time
To pretend that there is no advantage for the male in these types of events is plainly ludicrous. Our bodies are simply designed differently, and no amount of simply saying different makes it so.
Different sports can be dominated by particular ethnicities , just look at the all time quickest 100,200 meter times and see how many Caucasian men or women are on the list. It isn't racist for saying so, its simple fact. That is a very different scenario from looking at F1 world champions and saying well Caucasians are genetically faster racing drivers
None of this means that any one is "better" than the other, just that different ethnicities, sexes have different attributes and it is plain foolishness to pretend differently.
It is evidentl that a 43 year male who has been training and competing at weightlifting their entire lives, is going to have an advantage over a 43 year old female on a strictly like for like basis. Bone structure, muscle density and distribution etc are all different, and nothing is going to change that.
For trans women to compete in these circumstances with CIS Women and expect it to be a level playing field is the same as putting a CIS Woman in a 100 meter sprint with Usain Bolt and expect it to be fair race.
There is going to be more and more instances of trans people wanting to compete at elite level and quite rightly they should be allowed to compete. However whether we like it or not there are major physical differences which will give advantages to some. We can not simply pretend otherwise and so a proper debate needs to be held over how to proceed.
I have no idea what the answer is, currently we have male competitions, female competitions, para male and female competitions and there is no outcry saying its discriminatory or exclusive, should we add a trans category to those?
One thing is for sure this is an issue that is only going to be more prevalent in the future, so the debate needs to be started
It is difficult to have a conversation these days regarding differences between the different ethnicity, gender, sexuality, sex etc of people in general, let alone specifically regarding sport, without falling foul of the equality and inclusivity argument
It is an undeniable fact that CIS Males are by and large, stronger and faster than CIS Females. Its why you don't see athletics races, throwing competitions, swimming. boxing, rowing events, football or rugby , hockey, basketball matches etc at almost any level (other than at pre teen level)where CIS males are in direct competition with CIS Females. It simply wouldn't be fair the male would win a massive majority of the time
To pretend that there is no advantage for the male in these types of events is plainly ludicrous. Our bodies are simply designed differently, and no amount of simply saying different makes it so.
Different sports can be dominated by particular ethnicities , just look at the all time quickest 100,200 meter times and see how many Caucasian men or women are on the list. It isn't racist for saying so, its simple fact. That is a very different scenario from looking at F1 world champions and saying well Caucasians are genetically faster racing drivers
None of this means that any one is "better" than the other, just that different ethnicities, sexes have different attributes and it is plain foolishness to pretend differently.
It is evidentl that a 43 year male who has been training and competing at weightlifting their entire lives, is going to have an advantage over a 43 year old female on a strictly like for like basis. Bone structure, muscle density and distribution etc are all different, and nothing is going to change that.
For trans women to compete in these circumstances with CIS Women and expect it to be a level playing field is the same as putting a CIS Woman in a 100 meter sprint with Usain Bolt and expect it to be fair race.
There is going to be more and more instances of trans people wanting to compete at elite level and quite rightly they should be allowed to compete. However whether we like it or not there are major physical differences which will give advantages to some. We can not simply pretend otherwise and so a proper debate needs to be held over how to proceed.
I have no idea what the answer is, currently we have male competitions, female competitions, para male and female competitions and there is no outcry saying its discriminatory or exclusive, should we add a trans category to those?
One thing is for sure this is an issue that is only going to be more prevalent in the future, so the debate needs to be started
Baker lite
Banned
Good luck to her..
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,329
the people who train for years to be competitive care quite a lot.
the trans community will care quite a lot too.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,329
so the selectors had to exclude one woman to allow another woman, thats how selection goes. im sure the one left out didnt meet the lift criteria, so its completely fair.
Cheeky Monkey
Well-known member
- Jul 17, 2003
- 23,057
NSC Will Eat Itself
Or the women's world record could be faster, longer etc than the men's.
There is a good article about it here https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1108392/big-read-laurel-hubbard
I don't blame the athlete, I blame the IOC for letting this happen.
I don't blame the athlete, I blame the IOC for letting this happen.
Perfidious Albion
Well-known member
It's the Olympics, does anybody expect fairness?
I watched the Panorama programe about the Paralympic categories and how unfair they can be. The lengths some athletes will go to, to get a favourable grading amazed me.
Seagull58
In the Algarve
She competed in men's weightlifting before transitioning 10 years ago. She smashed the women's world record in the 2019 Commonwealth Games and lifted close to twice the total of the second place athlete across the 3 lift categories She has a man's body and has retained the benefits of that despite transitioning.
I was about to write a post agreeing with most people on here.
Then I read this. It's about the time between hormone therapy and competition that matters.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...dge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764
Then I read this. It's about the time between hormone therapy and competition that matters.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc...dge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764
Razzoo
Well-known member
I think my definition of woman doesn't tally with yours then.
Shropshire Seagull
Well-known member
This feels like win at all cost has taken a step too far.
If (s)he wins a medal at the expense of a genuine woman, will (s)he really feel delighted or fraudulent?
I'm now thinking about chopping my knob off so I can win the annual WI knitting competition - nah, maybe not!
If (s)he wins a medal at the expense of a genuine woman, will (s)he really feel delighted or fraudulent?
I'm now thinking about chopping my knob off so I can win the annual WI knitting competition - nah, maybe not!
Trans women are not biologically female and never can be ie they are not ‘real women’.
That is a statement of fact not, as some would have it, some anti trans bigotry.
If you are not female you should not, imho, be allowed to compete as if you are under any circumstances.
We are through the looking glass with this stuff.
That is a statement of fact not, as some would have it, some anti trans bigotry.
If you are not female you should not, imho, be allowed to compete as if you are under any circumstances.
We are through the looking glass with this stuff.
Worried Man Blues
Well-known member
They obviously have a different attitude down under, if the bloke wins he must feel bit of a ****
GT49er
Well-known member
Difficult one. Definitely not fair on the (born as female) athletes. Perhaps it should just be accepted that if you want gender re-alignment (is that the correct term?) one of the many difficult things to consider is that you won't be involved in competitive sports afterwards?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,329
think you've missed the significant point of the story, Hubbard is now a woman.
It's very complicated...
This from the article I referenced earlier:
"The guidelines, which are employed by most sports federations, also established that trans female athletes must maintain testosterone levels below 10 nanomoles per liter. That’s on the far low end for most cisgender males but higher than average for cisgender women, whose testosterone typically falls between 0.3 and 2.4 nanomoles per liter.
But, Roberts points out, cisgender women with polycystic ovary syndrome and some other conditions can have levels three times that — or even higher. Nearly a third of elite adolescent female athletes have relatively elevated testosterone, compared to just 2 to 12 percent of the general female population. Female Olympians also tend to have higher levels than age-matched controls."
This from the article I referenced earlier:
"The guidelines, which are employed by most sports federations, also established that trans female athletes must maintain testosterone levels below 10 nanomoles per liter. That’s on the far low end for most cisgender males but higher than average for cisgender women, whose testosterone typically falls between 0.3 and 2.4 nanomoles per liter.
But, Roberts points out, cisgender women with polycystic ovary syndrome and some other conditions can have levels three times that — or even higher. Nearly a third of elite adolescent female athletes have relatively elevated testosterone, compared to just 2 to 12 percent of the general female population. Female Olympians also tend to have higher levels than age-matched controls."
Shropshire Seagull
Well-known member
Well, good luck trying to get her pregnant then !!