[Albion] Midfield goal production and the striker myth

[KeegansHairPiece]

We’ve become easy to play against. We don’t have size up front therefore we’re going to try and play with pace. Sit deep and this negates our ability to get behind the defence(yesterday). Defend in numbers, fill in the gaps and shots get blocked. The stats are there but they don’t tell the story of the games. Yes Connolly should have scored yesterday, if he’d miss hit it, it would have gone in. Maupay has played the last 2 games with his back to goal dropping in to get involved, not his strength. Bissouma has tried a couple of wayward efforts and wasted them. Lallana is not a threat in front of goal, has he ever been. He has to step up, as we’re going to pay him a fortune for another 2.5 years(ouch).
Potter is trying, but the players are not good enough to put his plans into practice. We have depth, but the depth is no better than the starting 11.
Yes we need a clinical finisher, but more so we need players to create better chances and then we can complain if those gilt edged chances are not being finished.
And somebody who can take penalties......

How can we be easy to play against if we’ve created 60+ chances in 3 games? I’d suggest we’re a nightmare to play against with the MASSIVE relief that we don’t score goals.

Alladyce and Hodgson have been played off the park. At least Alladyce had the grace to have a chuckle about it after as he’d have had no complaints with a 3 or 4-1 defeat, it was an absolute gift for them and he knew it.

 

[GT49er]

Do we need more goals from midfield ... yes

Does that change the fact that yet again our three ‘strikers’ all missed golden chances..... no.

So although I completely agree that we do need more goals from midfield, the fact our strikers are poor isn’t a ‘myth’ ... it’s a fact backed up by further facts.

Yes, of course better striker(s) would be great - but if Bissouma, Gross and MacAllister had each scored three goals we wouldn't be having this discussion - and we'd be about five places further up the table.

 

[Hamilton]

How can we be easy to play against if we’ve created 60+ chances in 3 games? I’d suggest we’re a nightmare to play against with the MASSIVE relief that we don’t score goals.

Alladyce and Hodgson have been played off the park. At least Alladyce had the grace to have a chuckle about it after as he’d have had no complaints with a 3 or 4-1 defeat, it was an absolute gift for them and he knew it.

I think we may be seen as easy to play against because the opposition know that we are pretty toothless. I'd be interested in knowing how many of our shots on target forced a half decent save.

As a result, the mentality of teams coming out to play against us changes.

I keep waiting for the floodgates to open, but there's no sign of it. We must be the biggest enigma in football at the moment.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If that a fact? The problem I have here is that Swansman is telling us that ou midfield is no good. So who are creating all the chances?

.... and who is it that is failing to convert them?

[MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION]'s reasoning is perfectly sound. He did not say our midfield is no good.

If you think a midfield player's sole job is to create chances and not score himself you must have been asleep a few years ago when Man U won the league with 'no strikers'.

As for your comment that if we did have decent scoring midfield players that propel us to top 6 we'd lose them, I'd ask why? We'd be top six and in Europe

It's some time since Brighton were plucky in division 3 with Peter Ward then Bobby Zamora banging them in, in front of massive crowds, unmolested by VAR, while the bloke behind me shouted "Hoof it!. Quality hoof".

 

[maltaseagull]

Lots of moaning about the strikers and lack of competent strikers.

Its quite interesting. Brighton strikers so far scored 11 goals (Maupay 7, Connolly 2, Welbeck 2).

That is one more goal than West Ham in 4th place.

The midfielders scored 7 goals so far.

That is 13 less than West Hams 20 (Soucek 8, Bowen 5, Lingard 3, Fornals 2, Lanzini 1, Rice 1).

Leicester strikers scored 14 goals (Vardy 12, Perez 1, Iheanacho 1). Better than the Brighton strikers? Yes, 3 more. Does 3 more take you to the Champions League?

No. Midfield goal production does.

I repeat: the Brighton midfielders scored 7 goals. Leicesters midfielders: 24 (Barnes 9, Maddison 8, Tielemans 5, Praet 1, Ndidi 1).

I've said this about twenty times on the board already, always getting the reply "... but its the strikers job to score, Clough said so in the 70s"). Fair enough. But fact remains - goal production from midfielders are very important if you want to win games, and the major difference between Brighton and the top teams. The handful more goals produced by their strikers got very limited impact compared to the ca 15 goals more that the midfielders of (pretty much every) other team scored.

Looking at the majority of our shots from midfielders, I think they practice their shooting on a rugby pitch.

 

[Farehamseagull]

Looking at goals to xg ratios is clearly not a nice stat for any of our players but the problem is quite obviously mainly with our strikers as these stats show.

I know not everyone likes xg but these are a really useful guide so to explain, these figures show the extra goals these players should have scored based on the chances they have had. Midfielders:

Trossard: +1.82

Gross: +1.57

Mac Allister: +0.19

Bissouma: -0.43 (so he’s actually the only done better than expected with the chances he’s had)

Lallana: +0.62

And the strikers, it’s not pretty:

Maupay: +4.23 (shocking)

Connolly: +2.39

Welbeck: +2.64

From these group of players, the midfield have also contributed 10 assists and the strikers only 2!

There is no doubt where our main, huge issue is and it is not the midfield.

 

[jackcgull]

Such fine margins. It's very clear to anyone watching that we are a very good team. Solid defence, creating chance after chance after chance - and some really good chances included in that. The other team is allowed to play as well though - and they have really good players and can also get a bit of luck. We may go down, but I doubt it. And apart from the obvious frustration of not actually scoring any goals - it's great to watch. We are as likely to get a result against Leicester and Everton and Man U etc as we are against fulham and WBA.

Our strikers do a lot of work and the ball hasn't quite run for us - but they are not bad strikers. Scored plenty of goals in the past and they can again. Midfielders definitely need to score some wonder goals though. Against palace, Lallana had two decent chances to win the game and a player of his quality should be scoring - but he has been out for a while and not on it. Yesterday Trossard curled what should have been in the top corner straight into the keepers hands. The goals will surely come - They are just treading water until we can watch them live

 

[Swansman]

Out of interest, which of West Ham’s players are you including as a striker?

Antonio and Haller (7+3) are the ones scoring while playing in the striker role.

If that a fact? The problem I have here is that Swansman is telling us that ou midfield is no good. So who are creating all the chances?

.... and who is it that is failing to convert them?

Chances are created by defenders, midfielders and forwards and missed by defenders, midfielders and forwards.

An interesting follow up question would be why aren’t our midfield scoring many? Is it because they are missing chances or not getting chances? Just from watching it feels more like the latter (except for Trossard). If it is the latter, is it their fault for not getting into good positions or a result of the way we play?

Another question would be, how does the number of chances created for our strikers and midfielders compare to other teams? I feel like we probably create more for our strikers and less for our midfielders than other teams. If this is true then more blame can be put on our strikers as we are giving them more opportunities than other clubs but not getting more goals as a result.

Our midfielders are scared of shooting. I think they're under order not to.

Good question and zefarelly showing again he is not watching the games, which is understandable as it is quite painful.

The average central midfielder in PL shoot 0.93 times per 90 min. On average 26.7% of these shots hit the target. These are the Brighton numbers:

Yves Bissouma: 1.11 shots per game, 8% hitting the target.
Pascal Gross: 1.26 shots, 15% on target

The average PL attacking midfielder/winger take 2.01 shots per 90 mins. On average 36.6% of these hit the target.

Leandro Trossard - 2.13 shots, 36.1% hitting the target
Alexis Mac Allister - 2.41 shots, 15% on target

Meaning all of the most common Brighton starters shot more than the average midfielder/attacking midfielder in the PL with all of them also (in Trossards case not by much) being far worse when it comes to hitting the target.

Does this mean when I watch our strikers miss chance after chance I’m not meant to think it’s a bad thing?
It certainly feels bad.
It makes me think they are not very good.
It makes me think that is what is costing us.
Ah well, I’m not going to argue with stats.
Strikers who score goals are clearly a 70s thing.
I need to update my understanding of football.

Yes.

This Brian Clough of who you speak? Would he be the bloke who took a totally unfashionable side with fairly average players and turned them into European Champions, breaking up the title spree of Bob Paisley's mighty Liverpool? That Clough?

Imagine taking an unfancied club to those heights when another side is dominating the top league......

Ok. So here is a special for you: Nottingham striker goals 78/79: 30 (Birtles 14, Woodcock 10, Francis 6). Midfield goals: 25 (O'Neill 10, Robertson 9, Bowyer 4, Gemilll 1, Mills 1).

Meaning the guy who - according to some - didnt give a shit about midfielders scoring still had pretty much the same margin between the goal returns from strikers/midfielders as GP does with his team.

great stats analysis. here's more: 3 games, 66 shots, 1 goal. the problem isn't simply the strikers, its the goal scoring opportunities not taken. if the midfield isnt producing, are they not being coached better to take their opportunities?

The biggest difference between PL players is not if they were coached into doing one thing or another, but the level of their quality. If you hire someone for and pay them £50 000k a week, you'd imagine they would be pretty good to begin with, no? If you hire a cook on £50k per week, you expect him to be able to cut a ****ing cucumber without having to guide him through the entire process.

 

[Lethargic]

We’ve become easy to play against. We don’t have size up front therefore we’re going to try and play with pace. Sit deep and this negates our ability to get behind the defence(yesterday). Defend in numbers, fill in the gaps and shots get blocked. The stats are there but they don’t tell the story of the games. Yes Connolly should have scored yesterday, if he’d miss hit it, it would have gone in. Maupay has played the last 2 games with his back to goal dropping in to get involved, not his strength. Bissouma has tried a couple of wayward efforts and wasted them. Lallana is not a threat in front of goal, has he ever been. He has to step up, as we’re going to pay him a fortune for another 2.5 years(ouch).
Potter is trying, but the players are not good enough to put his plans into practice. We have depth, but the depth is no better than the starting 11.
Yes we need a clinical finisher, but more so we need players to create better chances and then we can complain if those gilt edged chances are not being finished.
And somebody who can take penalties......

Almost agree apart from the fact we do not play with pace, Leeds, Leicester etc play with pace we just try to walk in behind. Therefore teams know we can't change our style and lob one forward using height its a waste of time. On the occasions we have introduced pace it has worked but unfortunately this is as rare as bit of nooky under lockdown.
We are so one paced teams are regimented in defence, set up in numbers and our attacking players are not great at breaking them down so we end up with poor speculative shoots.
So in hindsight (this is relative to our ambitions) our strikers are not good enough, our midfielders are not good enough, our coaching is not good enough, our fitness is not good enough, our recruitment is not good enough. All of these are very small margins but it means there are many areas we can improve it is not all down to just getting better strikers.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[brighton_tom]

Apart from Bissouma maybe, none of the midfielders seem brave enough to shoot unless they're in the 6 yard box maybe. There's alway 1 or 2 extra passes before a shot is taken or more likely the chance has gone.

 

[blockhseagull]

Yes, of course better striker(s) would be great - but if Bissouma, Gross and MacAllister had each scored three goals we wouldn't be having this discussion - and we'd be about five places further up the table.

Maybe we would.

I’m not arguing against the point the midfielders need to score more because it is obvious.

However it isn’t a ‘myth’ that our strikers aren’t good enough... they aren’t good enough and the stats and the results back that up.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Antonio and Haller (7+3) are the ones scoring while playing in the striker role.



Chances are created by defenders, midfielders and forwards and missed by defenders, midfielders and forwards.







Good question and zefarelly showing again he is not watching the games, which is understandable as it is quite painful.

The average central midfielder in PL shoot 0.93 times per 90 min. On average 26.7% of these shots hit the target. These are the Brighton numbers:

Yves Bissouma: 1.11 shots per game, 8% hitting the target.
Pascal Gross: 1.26 shots, 15% on target

The average PL attacking midfielder/winger take 2.01 shots per 90 mins. On average 36.6% of these hit the target.

Leandro Trossard - 2.13 shots, 36.1% hitting the target
Alexis Mac Allister - 2.41 shots, 15% on target

Meaning all of the most common Brighton starters shot more than the average midfielder/attacking midfielder in the PL with all of them also (in Trossards case not by much) being far worse when it comes to hitting the target.




Yes.



Ok. So here is a special for you: Nottingham striker goals 78/79: 30 (Birtles 14, Woodcock 10, Francis 6). Midfield goals: 25 (O'Neill 10, Robertson 9, Bowyer 4, Gemilll 1, Mills 1).

Meaning the guy who - according to some - didnt give a shit about midfielders scoring still had pretty much the same margin between the goal returns from strikers/midfielders as GP does with his team.




The biggest difference between PL players is not if they were coached into doing one thing or another, but the level of their quality. If you hire someone for and pay them £50 000k a week, you'd imagine they would be pretty good to begin with, no? If you hire a cook on £50k per week, you expect him to be able to cut a ****ing cucumber without having to guide him through the entire process.

I don't give a shit what you think my example proves. You used Clough and the 70s as an implied insult when the man is one of the greatest managers this country has ever seen. That's all

 

[DJ NOBO]

Our midfielders not scoring is a big problem but a separate one to to our strikers being crap and fluffing chance after chance.
For example, Connolly’s open goal miss yesterday was very bad, and down to him, and him only.
It played a big part in costing us the match.
Believing good strikers score a lot of goals is hardly archaic thinking.
Take your man Zlatan . He has scored a lot of goals. He was/is a great striker, no?

 

[GT49er]

I don't give a shit what you think my example proves. You used Clough and the 70s as an implied insult when the man is one of the greatest managers this country has ever seen. That's all

.... and was a fvcking awful manager for Brighton, so forgive those of us who don't fawn over him.

 

[Swansman]

I don't give a shit what you think my example proves. You used Clough and the 70s as an implied insult when the man is one of the greatest managers this country has ever seen. That's all

Of course you dont give a shit, if you did you would have nothing to clutch on to.

 

[Invicta]

I personally don't care who scores but I wish someone would. Evidence suggests it's not going to be Maupay and Connolly though. If forwards arent the answer then let's try 2 more centre backs on the pitch.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Of course you dont give a shit, if you did you would have nothing to clutch on to.

I’ll repeat this as often as I have to.

You really do not understand football.

If you could actually go away and stop infecting this BRIGHTON forum with your neutral, modern fan bullshit that would be even better.

 

[Weststander]

The binary world of our strikers are good EPL strikers, whilst the midfield is where the fault lies.

Could it possibly be that all are poor at scoring?



West Ham is a unique case where transfer blunders and injuries left them with no strikers. So Moyes adapted.

West Ham have a bigger budget than us, paying higher wages. Bowen, Antonio, Lingard and Soucek would walk into the Albion starting 11.

Bowen £100k a week
Lingard £100k a week
Antonio £70k a week
Soucek £70k a week

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

By this logic then nobody would get dropped, because the Keeper would blame the defence, the defence would blame the midfield and the midfield would blame the forward when we concede a goal. It's an argument dreamt up by someone whose experience of football is not by watching or playing games live but by reading press articles and playing football games on the computer. Many of us realised the keeper had to be dropped, and months later, Potter finally made a decision that we had been calling for. The midfield we have at Brighton, for the budget we have, have been simply outstanding. If they are responsible for goal scoring as well as playing other teams off the park then they would be playing for Man United not Brighton. It is smply the case that Maupay and Connolly just miss every chance put their way and they are the strikers. Potter has continued to pick Maupay who has missed sitter after sitter after chance after chance. Bad management in my view. Drop Maupay and create competition up front by playing others. If needed convert another member of the squad to be a temporary striker, but first give Wellbeck some games and if Andone is fit, then pick him.

 

[Trelford Mills Guide Dog]

We’ve become easy to play against. We don’t have size up front therefore we’re going to try and play with pace. Sit deep and this negates our ability to get behind the defence(yesterday). Defend in numbers, fill in the gaps and shots get blocked. The stats are there but they don’t tell the story of the games. Yes Connolly should have scored yesterday, if he’d miss hit it, it would have gone in. Maupay has played the last 2 games with his back to goal dropping in to get involved, not his strength. Bissouma has tried a couple of wayward efforts and wasted them. Lallana is not a threat in front of goal, has he ever been. He has to step up, as we’re going to pay him a fortune for another 2.5 years(ouch).
Potter is trying, but the players are not good enough to put his plans into practice. We have depth, but the depth is no better than the starting 11.
Yes we need a clinical finisher, but more so we need players to create better chances and then we can complain if those gilt edged chances are not being finished.
And somebody who can take penalties......

Agree that our style of okay allows teams like Palace and West Brom to sit deep, get compact and absorb the pressure. But, I don’t think we play with pace at all (unless on the counter against teams who like to attack, like our fantastic goal away at Leeds).
We take too many touches - esp. Trossard - to get the ball into the final third, giving the opposition the time and opportunity to get into shape with large numbers behind the ball.