[Technology] Pay by the mile road pricing...

[beorhthelm]

Does this only apply on vehicles up to 1972?

it 1980 currently, a rolling 40yr for vehicles going exempt. sadly not 1997, that would ahve been case in original 25yr rolling period.

 

[Audax]

Catching up on this thread, so here goes with a lot of quotes...

I suspect that we are in for a huge culture shift in how we travel over the next 20 years.

Once 2030 kicks in, I presume petrol, prices will get higher and higher, forcing those who have not moved to electric to do so. Obviously the cost of electric cars will fall, but I do wonder whether families will still stick with the number of cars they have. Due to the pandemic both my wife and I now work at home and that is unlikely to revert back when society returns to normal. I can imagine us dropping down to one car in a few years... I'll just have to walk or get on my bike for local journeys - hopefully there will be more infrastructure for that too.

So, with quite possibly fewer cars on the road, and no emissions-based tax (note: 'road tax' hasn't existed for a long time, so I am careful how I word this), a new way of funding the roads and travel infrastructure will have to be found.

The change is going to start sooner, with or without the governments help. There's big steps forward in battery technology on the horizon that should make electric a) more affordable, and b) more usable for the average person (longer range between charges, faster charging). The current situation where a small BEV (like the Zoe) is competing in the same price bracket as larger family sized gas cars will hopefully be well on the way to be over long before 2030. The cost of batteries for cars has already collapsed (between 2010 and 2016 it dropped around 80%, and has only continued to drop since then).

The only truly sustainable solution to local and national transport needs is a comprehensive and reliable public transport network.

Electric cars need batteries. The batteries need certain metals and minerals. There are insufficient deposits of these to support mass worldwide adoption of the electric car, and the cost/logistics of mining these metals is an obstacle that currently has no workable solution.

Absolutely agree that the long term answer is a vastly improved public transport network. In the short term, however, we're going to need a transition period moving to cleaner personal transport options. Electric cars are well on their way to being the answer: the next generation of battery technology is coming, and many of the possible breakthroughs no longer require rare metals. That makes them both more environmentally friendly and cheaper to produce, which will go a long way towards helping drive down (excuse the pun) the cost of electric vehicles.

Electric cars still pollute the planet just in a different way, what's more VAT on elec is only 5%. Cyclists pollution is minimal and it also promotes health and well being reducing demand on the NHS etc

One key element of the "different way" is that it moves the worst of the pollution out of our cities (no more tailpipe emissions). And, as the tech is pushed forward at a rapid rate the pollution that remains is being reduced (our electricity generation to the grid is getting greener constantly, and battery tech is getting greener). The argument that it's not a viable solution because it isn't "super clean today" isn't a great one - it fails to take account of what the future holds. Cleaning up fossil fuels is well into the realm of diminishing returns. Cleaning up battery tech and electric generation has barely got started, and is going to accelerate.

I'd love an electric car, but I don't think I'll ever be able to afford one. If I could, I don't have power in my garage to charge one. I don't think all electric by 2030 has been thought through.

I think you'll be surprised how quickly the cost of a new electric car will come down in the next 10 years. As for power in your garage - if you've got a garage, getting power to it is the easy bit. It cost me a little over £600 to install a wall charger for my Zoe a couple of months ago, and that's a swanky one with smart features allowing me to dictate whether it charges from mains or from my solar panels only or from both.

Millions of batteries being produced and dumped is hardly going to be good for the environment.

Batteries used in electric cars are already highly recyclable. They don't get dumped. As a quick example, a lot of ex-car batteries see a second life as electric storage devices for homes with solar, emergency power supplies for businesses, etc.

The environmental objections to electric cars are valid. They aren't perfect. They are better than what we have and can be part of the solution to get us through the short term until we've improved other transport technology .

Science, as we've seen, is capable of working at great speed when there is a necessity to do so.

You first statement is probably better put as "temporarily valid". I'm very confident the next 5-10 years will see massive change that means folks who currently argue against electric on environmental grounds will look back on those arguments and be embarrassed at their lack of foresight. Already mentioned in reply to a few quotes above, but battery tech is about to see significant change - doing away with rare metals, etc etc.

What people need with transport options is to be nudged towards more environmentally friendly options.

The truth is it's cheaper to commute by car than it is to commute by public transport. The sums need to be tilted the other way through state intervention.

Bingo, 100% agree with this. Nearly 6 years back when I got my car licence (I've had motorcycle for 26...) I did some sums. At the time, I had to run my own car. Turns out the "total cost of ownership" of an Aygo over 7 years was cheaper than the "total cost of ownership" of a season ticket from Uckfield to Uxbridge. [The Aygo only stayed with me a little over a year as I got a company car instead]. It's only got worse since then - season ticket costs have escalated and still don't have options for those like me who don't travel to the office 5 days a week, while my workplace is now more WFH friendly meaning fewer miles in the car (that's ignoring Covid-induced changes. My boss was already talking about moving me to 2 days a week WFH rather than 1 before Covid, now Covid's happened there's talk of the entire company being shifted far more WFH).

Also, car vs public transport isn't the only route to improvement. Many cities around the world have had great success through encouraging short-distance commuters to switch to 2-wheels instead of 4. You can fit a lot more scooters/motorcycles on the M25 than you can cars, and will have much shorter queues as a result. You also need less parking etc. Unfortunately electric tech for bikes is a bit behind that for cars, but it's coming.

My worry about the electric car is longevity, specifically around battery life.

We know that a petrol engine, if serviced appropriately will easily do 150k miles, a diesel 250+k so based on 10k per annum, these engines will do between 15 & 25 years.

Now, we've all owned a mobile phone, when it was new it would go for days on a single charge, but get to 5+ years and it's likely to go flat in less than a day - batteries age by not being able to hold their charge so efficiently.
So what will happen to 5 year old electric cars that, when new, did 400 miles on a single charge but now only manage 30-ish miles before batteries go flat.

They will need to fix battery life issues before electric cars can truly become sustainable - or electric cars will need a battery replacement scheduled in on a regular basis [2 year service cycle?]
Who has factored that cost in, both financially and environmentally?

You'll be pleased to know then that you're wrong about batteries for electric cars. The battery in my new Zoe has an 8 year warranty, and based on what older technology batteries in cars have been known to achieve I expect I'd get over 10 before it would need replacing. They're also easily recycled / repurposed, and the technology that's on the horizon will make the current batteries look terrible. By the time we get to 2030 the tech will be far, far ahead of what we have now.

You are kidding? Do you know how much energy and materials go into producing a car and the electricity to run it? The infrastructure they run on?

No longer polluting? Look again.

See above. The environmental impact of producing BEVs is coming down all the time, and it's beginning to accelerate. Arguing against electric on the basis that it is currently not perfect ignore the fact that it will only get better as time goes on, and that process is still in its infancy (unlike for ICE engines, which are now very mature tech). It also ignores the fact that the pollution is displaced and as we shift to electric vehicles, there will be air quality improvements in our cities and towns.

Electric cars aren't perfect today, but we can't afford to ignore the technology when it's already reaching a point where it's benefits vs fossil fuels are becoming clear. Especially while it's still unclear whether or not Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will become viable or not.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Replying just to yours, Audax to mine, I mentioned I have no power in the garage. My house is loosely end of a terrace of three, although effectively a semi. It runs my house, next door's house, her garage with power, mine with no power, the third neighbour's garage with power then the third neighbour's house. Would you think it easy to get power to my middle garage in those circumstances? I know some cars come with a free charging installation worth up to £600, but I doubt that would cover it.

 

[Justice]

It would cost me a grand a week to go to work never going to happen, Tories would get booted up the road if they tried to implement it.

 

[Justice]

Replying just to yours, Audax to mine, I mentioned I have no power in the garage. My house is loosely end of a terrace of three, although effectively a semi. It runs my house, next door's house, her garage with power, mine with no power, the third neighbour's garage with power then the third neighbour's house. Would you think it easy to get power to my middle garage in those circumstances? I know some cars come with a free charging installation worth up to £600, but I doubt that would cover it.

There is a thread about power to a garage 5 minute job

 

[Super Steve Earle]

For a start, you're assuming that somewhere will stay "undesirable" permanently. It may well be that your undesirable town is prime real estate. I saw a survey this week that said that Crawley is one of the best places to live in the country - that's a far cry from its reputation when I was young. I have experience of this: I moved to Balham in the mid-80s when its claim to fame was the most crime-ridden station on the Underground - it was cheap though. A few years ago, I saw a flat in my old block for sale at just under a million quid, it's become a very 'in' area.

Secondly, we may see more inducements for teachers to live nearer schools so they're part of the community.

Finally, as I posted earlier, we'll start seeing road price differentials where hiring a self-drive car in urban areas may would cost a fraction of the urban charge.

That's always assuming that schools continue to exist and kids aren't taught at home by remote link, of course.

Your second point is interesting. When my lad was at junior school, a head teacher was appointed on the understanding he moved to the village to be part of the community and be able to play a full part in the running of the school and support extra curricular activities. Once he got the job, he just stayed where he was and drove in from some distance, to the annoyance of many.

 

[Stat Brother]

 

[Audax]

Replying just to yours, Audax to mine, I mentioned I have no power in the garage. My house is loosely end of a terrace of three, although effectively a semi. It runs my house, next door's house, her garage with power, mine with no power, the third neighbour's garage with power then the third neighbour's house. Would you think it easy to get power to my middle garage in those circumstances? I know some cars come with a free charging installation worth up to £600, but I doubt that would cover it.

Yeah, my bad assuming the garage would be close enough to run power from the house. What a weird set up they've gone with. Only solution I can think of for that scenario, assuming the orientation is ok, would be the put solar panels onto your part of the garage roofing and hook those to a solar charger. But that'll be a lot more than £600 and a bit of a waste of a solar installation really.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

There is a thread about power to a garage 5 minute job

Nice one.

I was tempted to post on there, but didn't, want to derail the thread. Then I thought about a PM to you as you seem to know your stuff. Then I decided not to bother you as it seemed a bit unfair to waste your time. I'm not desperate for power in the garage, but I don't know where to go for advice if it's possible and reasonable bearing in mind there's a house and a garage between my house and garage.

 

[Audax]

Nice one.

I was tempted to post on there, but didn't, want to derail the thread. Then I thought about a PM to you as you seem to know your stuff. Then I decided not to bother you as it seemed a bit unfair to waste your time. I'm not desperate for power in the garage, but I don't know where to go for advice if it's possible and reasonable bearing in mind there's a house and a garage between my house and garage.

I suppose it might be possible, with a friendly neighbour, to run cabling through the roof space (if available) or buried in the garden (if there's gardens). Would assume something through the roof space would be easier, unless it's been converted.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Yeah, my bad assuming the garage would be close enough to run power from the house. What a weird set up they've gone with. Only solution I can think of for that scenario, assuming the orientation is ok, would be the put solar panels onto your part of the garage roofing and hook those to a solar charger. But that'll be a lot more than £600 and a bit of a waste of a solar installation really.

No worries. Easy assumption to make. I think I'll just have to do without.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It would cost me a grand a week to go to work never going to happen, Tories would get booted up the road if they tried to implement it.

Why? Have I missed some specific calculations or pricing?

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Yeah, my bad assuming the garage would be close enough to run power from the house. What a weird set up they've gone with. Only solution I can think of for that scenario, assuming the orientation is ok, would be the put solar panels onto your part of the garage roofing and hook those to a solar charger. But that'll be a lot more than £600 and a bit of a waste of a solar installation really.

I suppose it might be possible, with a friendly neighbour, to run cabling through the roof space (if available) or buried in the garden (if there's gardens). Would assume something through the roof space would be easier, unless it's been converted.

I'm not sure either would work. My previous neighbour suggested a piggy back on his garage supply, metered separately and charged to my address. Sounds simple, but doesn't seem to be an option in practise.

 

[blockhseagull]

Once again:-

Commuting by car between decent sized conurbations needs to be considerably quicker, better, easier and smoother.
At which point the cars job needs to end, in favour of a wide array of affordable mass transport options.



Currently Low Traffic Neighbourhoods are the latest push button.
Get rid, stopping people, must drive car, I'm stuck in my home.

Got to wonder just how many local Councillors were contacted to ask for more traffic in their neighbourhoods.

What about safety for travelers ?

 

[Justice]

Why? Have I missed some specific calculations or pricing?

£1 a mile or something like that I read

 

[Justice]

Nice one.

I was tempted to post on there, but didn't, want to derail the thread. Then I thought about a PM to you as you seem to know your stuff. Then I decided not to bother you as it seemed a bit unfair to waste your time. I'm not desperate for power in the garage, but I don't know where to go for advice if it's possible and reasonable bearing in mind there's a house and a garage between my house and garage.

There is always a way when your ready

 

[Bold Seagull]

£1 a mile or something like that I read

I think that sounds more like scare tactics than an actual realistic figure.