[Albion] St Albans Cathedral commision repainting the last supper with Jesus depicted as Black

[Yes Chef]

People everywhere have depicted Jesus in ways that reflect their culture. This move is hardly something new. Does it really matter?

I remember seeing some Indianised portraits of Jesus when I was over there, though not the multi arm thing. Must have been from his gap year in the Himalayas.

 

[Eeyore]

Access to all the Constantine archives would help, but will the Vatican ever hand over the keys?

I've always been fascinated in knowing about anything that was written before 100AD. That is really my cut off point.

Most importantly, secular references, i.e not the gospels, letters, early writings (including any of the New Testament apocrypha) that came in that period.

As far as I was aware there are few of them, but let's face it, tons would have been lost in the daily scheme of things. One was Josephus, who suggests he was as the Christians claimed (although the reference to him being the Messiah may not be original as it is not in keeping with his narrative). He acknowledges he was called Christ. I'm sure there was a reference by a Roman writer about what to do with the Christians at the time. There are a few secular references about Christians, their lifestyle and worship of Christ as we go into the second century.

Through a linking process of the Canon, early church writings, and other references to Christ/Christians after the end of the first century, it is clear that Christ existed, taught, was crucified, and many claimed he rose again. We just have little from people who were there at the time (apart from the Canon). But there is stuff from early church folk who would have known folk who were there.

So to deny Christ's existence one would have to have the mentality of a poached egg. Which means there are a few instant breakfasts walking around.

Something happened. You'd have to be pretty deluded to go putting yourself in harms way preaching about it too if it didn't happen.

I'd love to look in Vatican's vaults, although they may not have a lot as the church wasn't really formalised for decades so original writings from the crucial period <100AD may still be scarce. If only we had the internet back then...

 

[Hugo Rune]

Through a linking process of the Canon, early church writings, and other references to Christ/Christians after the end of the first century, it is clear that Christ existed, taught, was crucified, and many claimed he rose again. We just have little from people who were there at the time (apart from the Canon). But there is stuff from early church folk who would have known folk who were there.

I’m inclined to view the Christ through the same lens I view Rasputin. A profoundly alluring and almost brain washing self proclaimed mystic and prophet. Like the Russian, the Jewish Israeli was almost certainly difficult to kill. I don’t think he was dead when they took him off the cross and dumped him in the tomb.

 

[dangull]

If he was the son of God he could be any colour really, but his message was that everyone was equal whatever colour their skin.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Through a linking process of the Canon, early church writings, and other references to Christ/Christians after the end of the first century, it is clear that Christ existed, taught, was crucified, and many claimed he rose again.

Existed? - some biblical scholars suggest he might have
Taught? - possibly - but the evidence is sketchy
Was crucified? - well it was a fairly common form of punishment at the time - little evidence that an individual called 'Christ' (or any of the other variations) was crucified
Rose again? - zero evidence for this.

We just have little from people who were there at the time (apart from the Canon). But there is stuff from early church folk who would have known folk who were there.

The 'little people' - who would they be?
the 'Canons' - written many years (up to 300 years) later
'early church folk' - no evidence of anything there

So to deny Christ's existence one would have to have the mentality of a poached egg. Which means there are a few instant breakfasts walking around.

Given the lack of evidence - it is an incredible leap of logic to make this claim

Something happened. You'd have to be pretty deluded to go putting yourself in harms way preaching about it too if it didn't happen.

There were dozens, if not hundreds, of 'messiahs' in this region at that time - and countless cult followings - it was very common at the time - and not particularly risky.

I'd love to look in Vatican's vaults, although they may not have a lot as the church wasn't really formalised for decades so original writings from the crucial period <100AD may still be scarce. If only we had the internet back then...

Nothing to see before 300CE

You want to learn some stuff - have a look here -

 

[Silverhatch]

If he was the son of God he could be any colour really, but his message was that everyone was equal whatever colour their skin.

Good luck with that message in the fundamental Christian Bible Belt. And as for the Tub Thumping evangelicals in the Deep South!!

 

[Eeyore]

Existed? - some biblical scholars suggest he might have
Taught? - possibly - but the evidence is sketchy
According to multiple early testimonies he did
Was crucified? - well it was a fairly common form of punishment at the time - little evidence that an individual called 'Christ' (or any of the other variations) was crucified
‘Christ’ was a name used by the early Christians and others in their reference to their beliefs. It is Greek term referring to the 'anointed one'.There is much evidence in subsequent literature that talks of his death. Very few theologians disagree on this. It is referred to in secular accounts. Also look up ‘Criterion of embarrassment' theory. It makes sense.
Rose again? - zero evidence for this.
There wouldn’t be if we are contesting eye witness accounts.
The 'little people' - who would they be?
Read that again. I make no such reference.
the 'Canons' - written many years (up to 300 years) later
The earliest account is commonly held as Mark. Written about AD50-65. The first three gospels are synoptic and seem to come from an even earlier document known as ‘Q’. Look it up.
'early church folk' - no evidence of anything there
Ignatius, Polycarp, Papias. All knew one of more of the disciples. Again, look it up.
Given the lack of evidence - it is an incredible leap of logic to make this claim
No leap of logic when you spent time over three years reading into it.
There were dozens, if not hundreds, of 'messiahs' in this region at that time - and countless cult followings - it was very common at the time - and not particularly risky.
Blasphemy, as in claiming Christ was the Son of God, was punishable by death. You've been watching too much Monty Python
Nothing to see before 300CE
I don’t understand this statement.
You want to learn some stuff - have a look here –
I wasted time watching an interview that doesn’t deny Christ’s existence

See above. Just look things up for yourself. It's all online these days. Unlike in my time.

 

[Eeyore]

I’m inclined to view the Christ through the same lens I view Rasputin. A profoundly alluring and almost brain washing self proclaimed mystic and prophet. Like the Russian, the Jewish Israeli was almost certainly difficult to kill. I don’t think he was dead when they took him off the cross and dumped him in the tomb.

I've read of that theory. There are some considerations there.

If he'd been hanging and suffocating on a cross and then was dumped in a tomb he would have most certainly been finished off after the exposure to the cold air.

The tomb would have been sealed and he couldn't have just walked out.

Given that he was seen as a leader the story of the tomb guard was probable. A soldier who neglected his responsibility would have faced a pretty harsh penalty.

I can't see how someone would be taken down alive. They had a pretty good way of checking. Break the legs, stick a spear in. It's all pretty gruesome. He died for sure.

It's what happened next that matters.

It does seem pretty insane to claim you have seen him alive. The Romans would have produced the body. Anyway, you would have been risking your own life.

But as I've said, there is an early absence of literature beyond Mark's gospel about thirty years later. There probably would have been some but history is unlikely to yield it. It's not like modern times.

But the disciples existed and it went on from there.

 

[vagabond]

Sorry, but where will this all end?

Lenny, you do realise that whoever Jesus was, he wasn’t white. Right?

 

[vagabond]

So to deny Christ's existence one would have to have the mentality of a poached egg. Which means there are a few instant breakfasts walking around.

Something happened. You'd have to be pretty deluded to go putting yourself in harms way preaching about it too if it didn't happen.

Of course a Jesus of Nazareth existed. But there is no evidence any of the stories told in the Bible is true.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Crucifixion, wasn't it?

you owe me my half of my whiskey night cap and a screen wipe

 

[Eeyore]

Of course a Jesus of Nazareth existed. But there is no evidence any of the stories told in the Bible is true.

Physical evidence of New Testament gospel accounts would always be hard to provide. It's a bit like me telling you I went to the garden centre today. I can't provide evidence as I don't have the receipt. Although I could provide evidence that I was alive, there is a plant in my parent's grave, and it was the date of Mum's birthday. And folk who saw me there could vouch for it. The problem is there is no video footage, or even written accounts,

So if someone in 25 years says 'Ian was at the garden centre that day, someone told me at time' you still don't have evidence other than someone else's account.

Much of history is written from few original first hand accounts. Did Caesar really give a true version of the Gallic wars ? Commentarii de Bello Gallico is the main account. But it's commonly written as historical fact.

But what we see is a pattern of events and from that conclusions are drawn. The question will always be who Jesus really was, but his crucifixion is accepted as fact by most historians, the disciples existed, and the absolute dedication and adamant claims of them and some who were around at the time, and its mushroom effect in the face of some pretty deadly opposition, is quite remarkable.

 

[symyjym]

Is it me or is this actually deliberately racist?

I don't remember any white Jesus painting of him standing over black men all on one knee. If he was black his disciples would be black but this initiative is absurd if the point is to keep it real. Jesus wasn't about race but this has made it all about race. There's some thick arse people in this country.




In New Zealand he is depicted with Mary as a Maori. If an artist or sculpturer was asked to paint or make a man on the cross, they would make it look like the men they only knew of before the age of photography. There is even a Chinese version of Jesus too.

Meanwhile in Christian Africa he is white on the cross but it doesn't take too much effort to change it. Who cares.

People can depict him as they imagine him, though he was probably the son of a Roman soldier, Tiberius Pantera as rumour has it, and Mary had Egyptian roots. I don't think race was his message but the new painting only represents race.

The Hebrew Israelites like to say he was black but they also say that King James I was black because they use his Bible to fit their narrative, although this is problematic.

 

[symyjym]

Putting the 'interesting' stories of to one side and assuming this chap did exist, it's quite arrogant of the various churches to assume he was white in the first place owing to where he lived.

Wow this is an eye opener you getting 29 likes for a dumb comment. No surprise really on here though tbf. They didn't have photographs back then and when artists were asked to depict a man nailed on the cross, they got a man nailed to the cross.

Having not ever flown out on holiday to Egypt in their lives, they made him look like the people they know around them.

Why make it look a sinister whitening up when in New Zealand he is depicted as a Maori and in China Chinese. The "Woke" are sleep walking This whole story and many comments are as funny a ****.

Bloody arrogant church for assuming

 

[Goldstone1976]

... although there's nothing in the Bible that suggests that.

Quite so.

It’s been a while since I did any reading about her, but, from memory, the closest divinical reference is in the Talmud, where Magdala is described as full of harlotry (though there’s no reference to Mary, ofc), which is a bit like saying that a woman must be a prostitute because she lives near King Cross station.

The real kick to the rumours about her being a prostitute was a pope (can’t remember which one - Gregory??) in C6th who seems to have conflated her with Mary of Bethany and Mary “the sinner”. That, and 1500 years of misogyny did for her.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

According to the Mail, the Archbishop of Canterbury is the one who challenged the notion that Jesus was white. I know one thing, according to the Gospel he was certainly not African negro as shown in this painting. So this is just as wrong as the traditional paintings showing a white man.
Anyway, it is just a cheap shot by the cathedral to get publicity.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Who says I’m complaining ..where’s your sense of humour gone

Apologies old boy, long day yesterday


HKFC didn’t cover himself that well, but taking a leaf out of JC’s book I forgive him , besides his dear old Mum used provide the Gulls Eye sales team with a plethora of comps at the Goldstone , I’m not sure Messrs Bloom, Campbell and Sizen would have approved.

 

[Klaas]

There's some thick arse people in this country.

https://www.northstandchat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125443&stc=1&d=1593345020

 

[yxee]

Imagine how this thread plays out if the painter simply painted Jesus with brown eyes instead of blue.

It matters as much for his message as his skin colour

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

you owe me my half of my whiskey night cap and a screen wipe

If you'd been on your toes with some tissue handy, the alcohol expectorant could have been put to good use