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How do you think Boris has handled it so far ?

How do you think Boris has handled Covid 19 so far ?

  • Superb

    Votes: 27 10.8%
  • Very Good

    Votes: 63 25.1%
  • Good

    Votes: 56 22.3%
  • Average

    Votes: 22 8.8%
  • Poor

    Votes: 44 17.5%
  • Very Poor

    Votes: 39 15.5%

  • Total voters
    251
  • Poll closed .


Wozza

Shite Supporter
Jul 6, 2003
23,769
Online
Anonymous talk is cheap.

Fair enough. These folk are all named. :thumbsup:

"We have talked to scientists, academics, doctors, emergency planners, public officials and politicians about the root of the crisis and whether the government should have known sooner and acted more swiftly to kick-start the Whitehall machine and put the NHS onto a war footing."
 




Wozza

Shite Supporter
Jul 6, 2003
23,769
Online
It might be easy to dismiss that single section. But what you don't say is that it comes from a massive piece laying out in much more detail all the ways the government failed to act.

I hadn't seen the full article at 00.44. Could see it was causing a stir on Twitter though.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
51,464
Faversham
I'm going to stick my neck out here as someone who regards Boris with deep loathing.

I don't think he has done anything that warrants him being pilloried. His instincts may have been different from Gove's, but so what?

Our inability to 'deal' with this more swiftly is due to our electorate and government having other isses foremost in their minds for the last 3, 10 and 30 years: keeping tax low, keeping the state small, hoping our national institutions like the NHS will bimble along with massive (just under inflation) increases in spending each year. That meant we had neither the infrastructure nor the national will (sufficient trust in our government to obey a diktat) to be able to implement or comply with a swift lockdown. So it had to be done in stages for practical and political reasons.

I don't blame Boris for that.

But I will certainly blame the electorate if they decide, once this has settled down and we have counted up the dead, and it's time for another GE, that low taxes, small government, underfunding of the NHS and putting personal free will and 'freedom' above actually working together as a cohesive society, is the way forward. And I'm not sure I'd blame Boris (or his successor) for offering more of the same, because it seems to be what the electorate 'traditionally' wants.

Whether labour have now moved on from navel gazing is another matter; ironically it may soon actually be time for a bit of 'no compromise with the electorate' but this has never been how to get elected. We get the government we deserve.
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Fair enough. These folk are all named. :thumbsup:

"We have talked to scientists, academics, doctors, emergency planners, public officials and politicians about the root of the crisis and whether the government should have known sooner and acted more swiftly to kick-start the Whitehall machine and put the NHS onto a war footing."

Good.

Well, every prime minister or other political leader at the moment is getting both support and critisism. You can value expert Y over expert X or vice versa, or do your own thinking.

Either way.. I dont care that much... its your never-ending pie throwing contest.
 


Hugo Rune

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 23, 2012
22,004
Brighton
[tweet]1251780661146509312[/tweet]

Gove is starting his leadership campaign in earnest today:


“UK minister: 'All governments make mistakes'
Senior UK minister Michael Gove has conceded that the government made mistakes in its handling of the coronavirus.

He told the BBC's Andrew Marr: "All governments make mistakes, including our own. We seek to learn and to improve every day.

"It is the case, I'm sure, at some point in the future, that there will be an opportunity for us to look back, to reflect and to learn some profound lessons."

His comments come following accusations that the UK government was slow to act in preparing for the health crisis”

How long until he swaps the word ‘government’ for ‘Mr Johnson’ when referring to mistakes?
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
It might be easy to dismiss that single section. But what you don't say is that it comes from a massive piece laying out in much more detail all the ways the government failed to act.

It's a big article behind a paywall. Owen Jones (from the Guardian) has picked out what he thinks are the important bits in a long thread of tweets: https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1251606098974474244

The whole article is here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...n-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh if you're a subscriber, or willing to sign up.

The Sunday Times have tweeted a lot of the content themselves. Several consecutive tweets.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,431
It might be easy to dismiss that single section. But what you don't say is that it comes from a massive piece laying out in much more detail all the ways the government failed to act.

It's a big article behind a paywall. Owen Jones (from the Guardian) has picked out what he thinks are the important bits in a long thread of tweets: https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1251606098974474244

apart from the obvious axe grinding, seems to be going over the ground from January and February. its great with hindsight to say we were slow to respond, along with the rest of world. though even now there are academics and specialist saying we have over reacted, so what view will we have in another month or three?

on one point from Jone's tweets, we couldn't have been Germany because our healthcare systems are different. we have bureaucratic approval of everything through NHS management, PHE, Department of Health. Germany have a devolved system where states and cities can procure and provide services as they see fit. this impacted on early response, it shouldnt need ministerial approval to increase stocks of PPE, approve new labs etc, which we know they didnt do.
 
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WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
26,188
From The Sunday Times...

View attachment 122431

Now whether he has made mistakes or not, I'll let others decide, but shirley it is, and always has been, blindingly obvious to everyone that he doesn't do long hours or detail. That much really can't come as a surprise, even to his most ardent supporter :facepalm:

And just to show balance, Dominic Raab does put in long hours, reads his briefings and does the detail (after having had SoS responsibilities pointed out to him, earlier in his career :wink:), but I wouldn't want him in a senior position in this either.
 
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The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,780
West is BEST
Unprecedented times and could not have been predicted in its totality. However, one thing is assured; whatever way it was going to go, Boris Johnson would always be the most ill-prepared, self serving, clueless old gas-bag at the table.

He’s a shit PM and a global pandemic doesn’t alter that fact, one jot.

Having said that, I don’t care whether he’s held to account over it or not. I just want a return to some semblance of normality with as few deaths as possible. He’s an awful person. No amount of inquiry, analysis or comeuppance will alter that.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,431
And related to the Sunday Times article - but to do with the ventilator challenge https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251434219139665920

this is more measured discussion, which highlights when politicans did respond they tripped over themselves to do something. the approval process meant nothing would likely come of the call for ventilators. meanwhile obvious path of increasing production of approved devices under licence seems to been overlooked.
 




Jimmy Grimble

Well-known member
apart from the obvious axe grinding, seems to be going over the ground from January and February. its great with hindsight to say we were slow to respond, along with the rest of world. though even now there are academics and specialist saying we have over reacted, so what view will we have in another month or three?

on one point from Jone's tweets, we couldn't have been Germany because our healthcare systems are different. we have bureaucratic approval of everything through NHS management, PHE, Department of Health. Germany have a devolved system where states and cities can procure and provide services as they see fit. this impacted on early response, it shouldnt need ministerial approval to increase stocks of PPE, approve new labs etc, which we know they didnt do.

I’m sorry but could you provide evidence that anyone has overreacted? That seems an utterly mental conclusion to make at this stage.
 


Horses Arse

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2004
4,571
here and there
Unprecedented times and could not have been predicted in its totality. However, one thing is assured; whatever way it was going to go, Boris Johnson would always be the most ill-prepared, self serving, clueless old gas-bag at the table.

He’s a shit PM and a global pandemic doesn’t alter that fact, one jot.

Having said that, I don’t care whether he’s held to account over it or not. I just want a return to some semblance of normality with as few deaths as possible. He’s an awful person. No amount of inquiry, analysis or comeuppance will alter that.
Yep. A government that will not or can not govern is not a government.

Now we find out the lying slacker failed to attend 5 cobr mtgs prior to his illness. In addition to avoiding PPE and ventilator purchase through the eu. That isn't hindsight, it is lack of care or interest.

He should be held acount, manslaughter (involuntary or corporate) would not be too strong a punishment. He and his Tory chums have much blood on their hands

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
 


Hugo Rune

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 23, 2012
22,004
Brighton
Now we find out the lying slacker failed to attend 5 cobr mtgs prior to his illness.

Bet Gove leaked this. He has taken the place of the Grim Reaper standing behind Mr Johnson with a knife. Seems that he has been spilling his beans all over the Times journos, he wasn’t going to go crying to the Guardian was he?
 




ManOfSussex

We wunt be druv
Apr 11, 2016
14,782
Rape of Hastings, Sussex
I'm going to stick my neck out here as someone who regards Boris with deep loathing.

I don't think he has done anything that warrants him being pilloried. His instincts may have been different from Gove's, but so what?

Our inability to 'deal' with this more swiftly is due to our electorate and government having other isses foremost in their minds for the last 3, 10 and 30 years: keeping tax low, keeping the state small, hoping our national institutions like the NHS will bimble along with massive (just under inflation) increases in spending each year. That meant we had neither the infrastructure nor the national will (sufficient trust in our government to obey a diktat) to be able to implement or comply with a swift lockdown. So it had to be done in stages for practical and political reasons.

I don't blame Boris for that.

But I will certainly blame the electorate if they decide, once this has settled down and we have counted up the dead, and it's time for another GE, that low taxes, small government, underfunding of the NHS and putting personal free will and 'freedom' above actually working together as a cohesive society, is the way forward. And I'm not sure I'd blame Boris (or his successor) for offering more of the same, because it seems to be what the electorate 'traditionally' wants.

Whether labour have now moved on from navel gazing is another matter; ironically it may soon actually be time for a bit of 'no compromise with the electorate' but this has never been how to get elected. We get the government we deserve.

I'm going to stick mine out as well then, as this is the appropriate thread for such things. Society has changed massively from the one I was born in and grew up in during the 1970's and 1980's. Community spirit and social conscience are not what they are. A lady that wasn't for turning started it. What patriotism there is has veered toward nationalism. It'll be interesting if what's now occurring alters anything in regards to the course The UK was headed toward in regards to its existential future, but that's an aside. We now live in a selfish, self absorbed, individualistic society where people will not take diktats as they would have done in the past. For example, my brother is a teacher and he tells me at his school they have to ask parents permission now to put a kid in detention?! I remember getting a hard back smacked on my head by my teacher in my last year of primary school! I know which world I prefer. My opinion on why some of this has led us to here, is as follows:

35+ years of vilifying people on benefits, and the journey toward Universal Credit and a system designed to hassle people into work, not provide support. This has been done by both left and right - 'I'm alright Jack' Sun readers and sneering Guardian readers are both to blame. Benefit fraud = front page news in this country. Too many people therefore are looked down on by both society and the state. They are made to feel lesser equals. Too many people grow up with the ambition of simply wanting to win the lottery or marry a footballer. What is the state and society to a lot of people now? Why should they care?

The internet, social media and smartphones = a more selfish, self absorbed, individualistic society. That was inevitable sadly.

The years of austerity and what that has done to public services and their capability to deal with the current crisis. People voted for this, as you say though. They want Scandinavian style public services, but they 'aint paying for it or voting for anyone who might propose doing it.

The populism of Brexit that has now dominated the life of this country over the last 5 years has unfortunately in my opinion played a part in this and the seeds of that came from austerity too - Don't listen to the experts. Don't listen to The PM or every other former living PM. Don't listen to every other world leader, bar Putin and Trump. Don't listen to the CBI or The TUC - you believe what you want and you vote and decide what you want, because you know best. Now it's listen to the experts because they know best, stay indoors, do this, do that, listen to the politicians who told you 4 years not to listen because although you knew best then, now you don't. (I can't believe, because that's all I have to do now, that Macron threatening to close the border jolted Johnson into the lock-down, because it was never going to be an issue due to Brexit, was it? Johnson said so himself. It's just the French media telling lies. I only watch RT and don't trust the MSM now. I know best you see and I use the term 'woke' ??? )

So many people didn't see this coming because they weren't being told. You only had to look south at France, Spain and Italy, but hey ho - keep clam and carry on because we're British, don't you know. Now they have and despite this being unprecedented, plenty of people think they know best and think they know how this will play out. It'll all be fine in a couple of months v we're completely doomed forever. People stuck in high rise flats v people who live in a very big house in the country etc, etc - so many things to divide us v something that could actually unite us. So many imponderables.

So in the grand scheme of things, based on the few reasons I've given above and the general state of Westminster and the quality of politicians now compared to those back in the yonder, because frankly who the hell would want to go into politics after the last few years and the overall state of this country as a whole, I agree with you. For what it's worth, I do actually love The Queen, but her speech 2 weeks would be wasted on too many people now. It wouldn't have been in the past - that's the sad thing, but we are where we are.

Anyway, I think I'm now going to make myself a nice toasted, bacon and egg sandwich for lunch. I'll obviously wash my hands thoroughly with soap and hot water and sing the national anthem first though. :whistle:
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
18,413
Deepest, darkest Sussex
If we're comparing WW2 you have to stick to the timescale, we're only a month into this. It would be like criticising Chamberlain for underfunding the military and not having enough tanks, despite the same people supporting the League of Nations for the last 20 years.

I've only watched documentaries and never studied it so someone will be able to correct me! Wasn't there similar division and bickering about what to do at the start of WW2?

Largely correct, albeit the League of Nations was basically a busted flush by about 1935 in the eyes of just about everyone. The time parallels also don't really work as there was very little actual activity in the west up until the spring of 1940 (Hitler and Stalin being more concerned about keeping Poland quiet), it's the equivalent of blaming Chamberlain for Dunkirk. It is, by virtually all realistic measures, an abject failure, but some would still assign to the current handling of the coronavirus (and the eventual flattening of the curve) the attributes of a victory.

Of course by Dunkirk Chamberlain had already been ousted, I wouldn't be surprised if once this is over Boris Johnson doesn't follow suit. He's been their useful idiot and done the bit he was required to do, he's now expendable.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
18,413
Deepest, darkest Sussex
He’s a shit PM and a global pandemic doesn’t alter that fact, one jot.

This summed it up for me quite nicely when I saw it earlier;

[TWEET]1251794732231114752[/TWEET]
 






GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
47,109
Gloucester
I’m sorry but could you provide evidence that anyone has overreacted? That seems an utterly mental conclusion to make at this stage.
He didn't say we had over-reacted; he said that some people (so called 'experts' of one kind or another, I guess) are saying that we over-reacted.
Whatever viewpoint anyone has these days, no matter how crackpot, you can almost certainly find an 'expert' somewhere who will agree with it!
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
51,464
Faversham
I'm going to stick mine out as well then, as this is the appropriate thread for such things. Society has changed massively from the one I was born in and grew up in during the 1970's and 1980's. Community spirit and social conscience are not what they are. A lady that wasn't for turning started it. What patriotism there is has veered toward nationalism. It'll be interesting if what's now occurring alters anything in regards to the course The UK was headed toward in regards to its existential future, but that's an aside. We now live in a selfish, self absorbed, individualistic society where people will not take diktats as they would have done in the past. For example, my brother is a teacher and he tells me at his school they have to ask parents permission now to put a kid in detention?! I remember getting a hard back smacked on my head by my teacher in my last year of primary school! I know which world I prefer. My opinion on why some of this has led us to here, is as follows:

35+ years of vilifying people on benefits, and the journey toward Universal Credit and a system designed to hassle people into work, not provide support. This has been done by both left and right - 'I'm alright Jack' Sun readers and sneering Guardian readers are both to blame. Benefit fraud = front page news in this country. Too many people therefore are looked down on by both society and the state. They are made to feel lesser equals. Too many people grow up with the ambition of simply wanting to win the lottery or marry a footballer. What is the state and society to a lot of people now? Why should they care?

The internet, social media and smartphones = a more selfish, self absorbed, individualistic society. That was inevitable sadly.

The years of austerity and what that has done to public services and their capability to deal with the current crisis. People voted for this, as you say though. They want Scandinavian style public services, but they 'aint paying for it or voting for anyone who might propose doing it.

The populism of Brexit that has now dominated the life of this country over the last 5 years has unfortunately in my opinion played a part in this and the seeds of that came from austerity too - Don't listen to the experts. Don't listen to The PM or every other former living PM. Don't listen to every other world leader, bar Putin and Trump. Don't listen to the CBI or The TUC - you believe what you want and you vote and decide what you want, because you know best. Now it's listen to the experts because they know best, stay indoors, do this, do that, listen to the politicians who told you 4 years not to listen because although you knew best then, now you don't. (I can't believe, because that's all I have to do now, that Macron threatening to close the border jolted Johnson into the lock-down, because it was never going to be an issue due to Brexit, was it? Johnson said so himself. It's just the French media telling lies. I only watch RT and don't trust the MSM now. I know best you see and I use the term 'woke' ??? )

So many people didn't see this coming because they weren't being told. You only had to look south at France, Spain and Italy, but hey ho - keep clam and carry on because we're British, don't you know. Now they have and despite this being unprecedented, plenty of people think they know best and think they know how this will play out. It'll all be fine in a couple of months v we're completely doomed forever. People stuck in high rise flats v people who live in a very big house in the country etc, etc - so many things to divide us v something that could actually unite us. So many imponderables.

So in the grand scheme of things, based on the few reasons I've given above and the general state of Westminster and the quality of politicians now compared to those back in the yonder, because frankly who the hell would want to go into politics after the last few years and the overall state of this country as a whole, I agree with you. For what it's worth, I do actually love The Queen, but her speech 2 weeks would be wasted on too many people now. It wouldn't have been in the past - that's the sad thing, but we are where we are.

Anyway, I think I'm now going to make myself a nice toasted, bacon and egg sandwich for lunch. I'll obviously wash my hands thoroughly with soap and hot water and sing the national anthem first though. :whistle:

Superb post, all the more impressive because you wrote it so quickly - a stream of consciousness.

Although I agree with you in most respects, I think it is too easy to come down hard on the current population, and I feel that to an extent you view the community of the past through rose tinted spectacles.

The 1960s, 70s and 80s I grew up in had a streak of bullying localism in it derived from ignorance. Ignorance was due to lack of opportunity for (or interest in) mixing. Our information sources were very limited. Our aspirations (I have a working class background) were narrow.

Listen to Billy Bragg's early recordings in the 80s. He captured working class aspirations perfectly. For working class women in particular. My mum escaped poverty through marriage, and behaved accordingly. Consequently my dad lived as he understood his place as 'head of the household'. In many respects it was Dickensian. The idea that my mum and dad could be part of a community working together for the good of friends and neighbours is laughable. Fear. Knowing their place. Caught in the no man's land between the old Victorian terraced house world (in my mum's case) and the frightening world of suburbia, my pink half of the drainpipe, peeping through the net curtains at the neighbours.....

No. It is better today. Where I live, the houses are not as nice as my mum and dad's in Portslade in the 60s and 70s. But people here are considerate, cosmopolitan, reflective, open to new things.

I'd like to think we have more hope than perhaps you imagine.

Anyway, time I buggered off to do family things.

All the best from Sunny Faversham, and a glass half full :wave:
 


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