[Travel] What Is The Most Environmentally Friendly Vehicle?

[portslade seagull]

Ask the extinction rebellion crew I'm sure they don't drive nasty cars ... cough cough

 

[Seagull]

You have had some really good answers to the question - I am not sure there is a right answer. This is how I would approach the problem, in your circumstances.

Firstly as many have pointed out, not having a car is the greenest option, but you need to put a score against how highly you value having a car.

For example living in London, how easy is it to park close to your house? - If you have to drive around for 20 minutes and eventually abandon the car up to three streets away, convenience may not score that highly. Do you need to pay for a parking permit? Also consider the likelihood of scratches, marks and dents. Conversely if you can park off road the convenience factor may score high.

Secondly Public transport can be really expensive, as can taxis - Factor in off peak travel costs on the train with kids and a taxi at the other end, versus car share versus rental. You can probably get multiple trips to see relatives, just for the cost of your insurance. The point is individual trips MAY appear expensive, but the base cost of car ownership is also not cheap.

Break down that 5k mileage per annum and work through a few scenarios. What if you got your shopping delivered, how much mileage would that save and what would be the cost? How does £6 a week delivery times 50 weeks compare to the service cost of a car?

Thirdly - be realistic about the cost of depreciation on any vehicle you own. As some have pointed out a wise second hand low mileage model, may score highly here. What do you think the cost will be to eke out a couple more years driving on your current vehicle. Even the greenest vehicle has a carbon cost of manufacture. It's another one of those counter-intuitive arguments. An old relatively high polluter, sitting on the driveway, is not much of a virtue signaller, but the carbon sunk in putting together is long spent, as is the depreciation.

Finally consider the cost of finance - Even if you have money sitting in the bank, what else could you do with it? I think there will be a major swing away from personal ownership of cars in the next decade. This could have a massive impact on sell on prices.

You have so many choices, from buy, lease, share, public transport plus taxis. How green is the car you own, isn't the only factor and often it shouldn't really be the deciding factor.

You have so many options other

This is a great post thank you! And the rest incl the piss-takers!
Agree that not having a car, hiring or keeping the old car could be greenest options. Yes the car does get clipped and scratched by white van men, lorries, neighbours ...

Insurance is relatively cheap, parking does cost £180. Don't want spend masses on something new ... up to £10k maybe. Any more ideas of green vehicles to look at? No more horses, too far to any stables ...

 

[beorhthelm]

This is a great post thank you! And the rest incl the piss-takers!
Agree that not having a car, hiring or keeping the old car could be greenest options. Yes the car does get clipped and scratched by white van men, lorries, neighbours ...

Insurance is relatively cheap, parking does cost £180. Don't want spend masses on something new ... up to £10k maybe. Any more ideas of green vehicles to look at? No more horses, too far to any stables ...

so you really want to buy a new car, though not doing more than a few leisure trips. this is not green what ever the vehicle.

 

[Seagull]

so you really want to buy a new car, though not doing more than a few leisure trips. this is not green what ever the vehicle.

Don't want to buy a new car per se, might stick with old one. Agree that not having any car is greener and I mainly cycle. My wife prefers the car, especially as we organise community events and regularly have to shift carloads of stuff from time to time.

Would just like to know which resources to research so I can weigh up green/greenwash credentials of anything being offered and decide what to do, based on facts. The media and politicians just spout "electric" as the new answer without thinking through the product life cycle, resources used and method of electricity generation IMHO.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

It's a shame we're so many posts into this thread and most have been of little value.

Despite some scare stories relating to rare earth minerals, the ethical and environmental impacts of the batteries in modern Electric Vehicles are low, much lower than any alternative. So, IF you have the necessary infrastructure to charge the car then an EV would be a very good option.

Clearly the ability to charge the vehicle (work or home) is a key dependency. If you have a drive you can get a home charger installed, which makes things simpler.

Where you get your electricity from will also affect your environmental impact. As discussed previously, there are Renewable only tariffs available, but not all 'Green' tariffs are the same, as the mix will be different. So, do some research. Also, Green tariffs are currently more expensive, despite wind / solar now being cheaper to produce than fossil fuel based generation.

The least impactive way to 'fuel' an EV is from your own solar panels, which is effectively free, green electricity. Combine an EV with Solar, and Battery pack, and you'll be self sufficient for a number of months, but the cost of the infrastructure is quite high.

The other consideration is how you intend to use the vehicle; how frequently, journey distances etc.

For example, as you mentioned, you might require 1 small EV for local journeys, but feel you need a ICE for longer journeys & towing. If this is the case, perhaps a plug on hybrid is your best option?

Some of these offer up to 30 miles EV only travel, which would cover all of your frequent local travel, without ever needing to burn any fossil fuel, and if you travel further OR importantly need to tow. you can use the combined power train option. My sister in law has a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which does all of this. They recently purchased a large caravan which they are able to tow using the PHEV, and this is in North Devon, with some serious hills to navigate.

Remember there are a large number of Hybrid / EV vehicles coming to market, so your options will increase.

 

[blue-shifted]

It's a shame we're so many posts into this thread and most have been of little value.

Despite some scare stories relating to rare earth minerals, the ethical and environmental impacts of the batteries in modern Electric Vehicles are low, much lower than any alternative. So, IF you have the necessary infrastructure to charge the car then an EV would be a very good option.

Clearly the ability to charge the vehicle (work or home) is a key dependency. If you have a drive you can get a home charger installed, which makes things simpler.

Where you get your electricity from will also affect your environmental impact. As discussed previously, there are Renewable only tariffs available, but not all 'Green' tariffs are the same, as the mix will be different. So, do some research. Also, Green tariffs are currently more expensive, despite wind / solar now being cheaper to produce than fossil fuel based generation.

The least impactive way to 'fuel' an EV is from your own solar panels, which is effectively free, green electricity. Combine an EV with Solar, and Battery pack, and you'll be self sufficient for a number of months, but the cost of the infrastructure is quite high.

The other consideration is how you intend to use the vehicle; how frequently, journey distances etc.

For example, as you mentioned, you might require 1 small EV for local journeys, but feel you need a ICE for longer journeys & towing. If this is the case, perhaps a plug on hybrid is your best option?

Some of these offer up to 30 miles EV only travel, which would cover all of your frequent local travel, without ever needing to burn any fossil fuel, and if you travel further OR importantly need to tow. you can use the combined power train option. My sister in law has a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which does all of this. They recently purchased a large caravan which they are able to tow using the PHEV, and this is in North Devon, with some serious hills to navigate.

Remember there are a large number of Hybrid / EV vehicles coming to market, so your options will increase.

Good post and you're right to call out the amount of crap jokes and inane drivel.

If I were the OP, I'd go for EV (assuming I had a driveway), switch my electric provider to Bulb and hire the occasional car hire for towing.

If no driveway, try to get by on a mix of car clubs, car hire, bikes and public transport

 

[beorhthelm]

It's a shame we're so many posts into this thread and most have been of little value.

Despite some scare stories relating to rare earth minerals, the ethical and environmental impacts of the batteries in modern Electric Vehicles are low, much lower than any alternative.

seems to overlook the alternative of using existing vehicle, which offsets the large proportion of life cycle impact in the manufacturing. even for new vs new EV, need to run to 100k + for the EV to become lower.

 

[blue-shifted]

seems to overlook the alternative of using existing vehicle, which offsets the large proportion of life cycle impact in the manufacturing. even for new vs new EV, need to run to 100k + for the EV to become lower.

You're right of course. I'm thinking of going new EV and my environmental justification is along the lines of .... they are going to last longer than petrol cars due to fewer moving parts, (so it might be more common to have a car for 20 years rather than 10 years on average) .... they'll never put the charging infrastructure in unless people actually buy them ... so by helping the EV movement gain traction, ultimately fewer cars in the future will be created ... .so ultimately lower life cycle impact in the automotive industry.

As ever, trying to be environmentally sound often involves trade offs and complicated reasoning. Very happy for this line of logic to be challenged

 

[Papa Lazarou]

You're right of course. I'm thinking of going new EV and my environmental justification is along the lines of .... they are going to last longer than petrol cars due to fewer moving parts, (so it might be more common to have a car for 20 years rather than 10 years on average) .... they'll never put the charging infrastructure in unless people actually buy them ... so by helping the EV movement gain traction, ultimately fewer cars in the future will be created ... .so ultimately lower life cycle impact in the automotive industry.

As ever, trying to be environmentally sound often involves trade offs and complicated reasoning. Very happy for this line of logic to be challenged

Sounds like a well reasoned justification. I'm much the same. If people like us aren't willing to make the switch, then what chance have we got to slow the rise in Co2 levels and mitigate Climate Change?

This recent scientific paper covers a lot of the arguments over 'total Co2 cost of EVs' - if you've got 15 mins to read through, it's worth it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261919307834

 

[Dick Head]

 

[Seagull]

As ever, trying to be environmentally sound often involves trade offs and complicated reasoning.

If people like us aren't willing to make the switch, then what chance have we got to slow the rise in Co2 levels and mitigate Climate Change?

So true, good posts and interesting article, thanks. So I use a renewable supplier and have for 15 years. Check https://clubs.moneysavingexpert.com/cheapenergyclub/home to change supplier if you have not done this yet. Think making this demand is important in putting pressure on the supply side. If everyone did this government would have to move faster to deliver cleaner energy.
I do also agree that there is a merit in the example you set by switching, which could encourage others to try to de-carbonise their travel too.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Interesting that this has now moved on to talking about the vehicles, which I think was the initial point anyway.

£10k would buy a Toyota Prius with maybe 65k mileage maybe 8 years old, possibly a couple of grand left over, on a good deal. A small step in the right direction.

I think we are maybe 2 years away from mass market electric cars, which is not too long to wait, if you like to buy from new. Mass market for me means better range, faster charging, more choice of vehicles and less of a price differential.

When it comes to replacing my current car. I will definitely want to move away from a petrol engine and will make sure that my finance model is not based around a traditional view of residual value.

My own personal hunch is that hydrogen will emerge over the next decade as the fuel of choice for vehicles. This is not a fashionable view right now. Production costs are high and the supporting infrastructure is lacking.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[Seagull]

My own personal hunch is that hydrogen will emerge over the next decade as the fuel of choice for vehicles. This is not a fashionable view right now. Production costs are high and the supporting infrastructure is lacking.

This may well be true. There seems a mass rush to speak about electric as the solution without thinking through all the angles re long term sustainability and low environmental impact cradle to grave. And as you say I was more looking for this kind of discussion with the OP. Meanwhile for the relatively clueless (i.e. me) yes a Prius does have some appeal, plenty of them purring round my local streets sounding eco.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Re the move to Hydrogen fuel cell powered cars, I think there is a long way to go, and some possibly insurmountable issues.

Firstly the entire lifecycle of a Hydrogen powered car is hugely inefficient. I was going to go into details here, but in looking for a diagram to illustrate the point I came across a couple of articles that make the point far more effectively than I could.

https://insideevs.com/news/332584/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/

https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/



I personally don't believe Hydrogen is a good fit for cars and other smaller vehicles, due to the high cost and inefficiency of the fuel across its lifecycle, BUT, as has already been adopted for larger vehicles due to the longer range hydrogen can offer. Fleets of buses or lorries all powered by large fuel cells, allow central storage and distribution of hydrogen, overcoming some of the infrastructure challenges.

 

[Questions]

What will that video look like in the not so distant future is what people should be asking themselves.

 

[daveinplzen]

There are electric scooters, bikes, and tiny two people cars for hire in Prague now. All the parking spots where I'm working now have connections for electric cars
Locals are using the scooters outside centre for bar hopping as cheaper than taxi

 

[Knocky's Nose]

And every time it farts, a star dies!

Pop Star, or Film Star?

Or.. Porn Star?!

 

[CheeseRolls]

Re the move to Hydrogen fuel cell powered cars, I think there is a long way to go, and some possibly insurmountable issues.

Firstly the entire lifecycle of a Hydrogen powered car is hugely inefficient. I was going to go into details here, but in looking for a diagram to illustrate the point I came across a couple of articles that make the point far more effectively than I could.

https://insideevs.com/news/332584/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/

https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/

View attachment 116268

I personally don't believe Hydrogen is a good fit for cars and other smaller vehicles, due to the high cost and inefficiency of the fuel across its lifecycle, BUT, as has already been adopted for larger vehicles due to the longer range hydrogen can offer. Fleets of buses or lorries all powered by large fuel cells, allow central storage and distribution of hydrogen, overcoming some of the infrastructure challenges.

Now the numbers don't stack up. If we want to get serious about green energy, we will need to deal with regularly generating more than current demand.

Hydrogen is a great store and production will get more efficient over time Quick refill extended range and no reliance on rare metals. I think it is a great long term bet. Of course there could also be great leaps in battery technology.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[CheeseRolls]

This is a ****ing good post, let's be honest.

Cheers, I have more than made up for it since though.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[zefarelly]

There are electric scooters, bikes, and tiny two people cars for hire in Prague now. All the parking spots where I'm working now have connections for electric cars
Locals are using the scooters outside centre for bar hopping as cheaper than taxi

Paris is full of electric scooters and bikes. England is decades behind the civilised parts of Europe, way too far up our own arses to see the light, and seemingly heading for darker times. London to Brighton in a few weeks . . . . ;-)