[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

Because consecutive Tory governments has backed the house into a Remain v No Deal situation.

Hypothetically. If there was a GE before Brexit, labour would run on a referendum ticket. The model they would use wouldn't be Remain v Leave, because that kind of vagueness got us into a political black hole .

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Nonsense they rowed back on their promises purely for party political reasons. Labours entire Brexit strategy has only one goal .... how best to position themselves to gain power.

Labours latest laughable policy is to offer a referendum when in government after negotiating their unicorn Brexit deal and then almost certainly campaign against it

 

[Lever]

When are you going to come out and tell us who your real NSC identity is?

You and Mikey really a couple of snakes in the grass.

Pathetic and limp really.

Don't be so hard on yourself Mouldy. You are not 'pathetic and limp'. You are just a bit unlucky when it comes to thinking.

 

[theonlymikey]

The EU insists it's the only deal on the table completely ignoring the democratic voice of the HoC. Where are the protesters/marches!

What democratic voice of the house of commons? They've had one shitty deal, the same deal to vote on three times, and now they've been gagged via proroguement.

As I've said the original ref gave us a what. If a new ref gives us remain instead of a how then we were never meant to leave.

I've asked and asked and asked the same question over and over, if leave are so sure of themselves, why brick wall the people deciding how we leave, if at all?

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[Publius Ovidius]

Cheers mate.it’s interesting times.

I am 61 this year and hopefully with a decent payoff that will see me through for a couple of years nearer my state pension. The really sad thing is the hundreds of people at my place who have lost their jobs who are a lot younger than me..our company is fairly unique in its skill base so some of them are finding it really difficult to find similar work, but a few are trying to retrain.

You have my sympathy and your frustration is understandable. I am sure your circumstances are not unique and I hope that it will work out positively for you.

 

[Lever]

But you have no problem with the lies in the 1975 referendum which were the basis to join in the first place?

You have no problem with the lies of politicians in this country handing over powers to the EU without consulting the people?

OK, so you are OK when it suits your outcome I see.

Lies are lies wherever they come from. The difficulty is finding the best way to deal with them and compounding them with whataboutism is not the answer.

 

[Bodian]

The EU insists it's the only deal on the table completely ignoring the democratic voice of the HoC. Where are the protesters/marches!

It's the only deal on the table that fits May's red lines. The EU would be more than happy to reach other deals that result in a softer Brexit.

 

[larus]

Lies are lies wherever they come from. The difficulty is finding the best way to deal with them and compounding them with whataboutism is not the answer.

OK, so would you overturn GE’s if one or other party has been deceitful?
How far back do you want to go?

Fact - all politicians lie. Even Lucas (so beloved by so many on here) has lied in saying she wanted a government of national unity, led by women. But it wasn’t only women, - no, they had to be remainers too, none of those horrible leaver scum. Can’t have that can we?

So, with respect, your faux outrage over the referendum is gesture politics. You don’t want to leave the EU, so try to use pious arguments to justify your desire to overturn the will of the people.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Don't be so hard on yourself Mouldy. You are not 'pathetic and limp'. You are just a bit unlucky when it comes to thinking.

Why don't you go on to a different thread it might broaden your horizons.

 

[Bodian]

We won’t install a physical border, so tell me, who will?

So, if we won't install a physical border, how do we limit/check free movement of good and people? And if we don't do that, how have we 'taken back control'?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

What democratic voice of the house of commons? They've had one shitty deal, the same deal to vote on three times, and now they've been gagged via proroguement.

As I've said the original ref gave us a what. If a new ref gives us remain instead of a how then we were never meant to leave.

I've asked and asked and asked the same question over and over, if leave are so sure of themselves, why brick wall the people deciding how we leave, if at all?

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The democratic voice of the HoC that overwhelmingly rejected the deal 3 times that the EU insists is the only deal we can have.

The original referendum gave us a clear mandate to leave. If a second referendum gave one to remain it's one all ... best of three?

Leave aren't brick walling anyone they are trying to enact the initial referendum result and the 2017 General election result. Democrats enact election results, undemocratic loons keep asking a question until they get the result they want.

 

[Bodian]

The democratic voice of the HoC that overwhelmingly rejected the deal 3 times that the EU insists is the only deal we can have.

'The only deal we can have' that fits with May's red lines - it's nonsense that it is all down to the EU. The EU would be more than happy to reach other deals that result in a softer Brexit.

 

[larus]

So, if we won't install a physical border, how do we limit/check free movement of good and people? And if we don't do that, how have we 'taken back control'?

Taking back control was so much more than the ROI border FFS.

Most sane people realise that the border has been politicised by the EU/Remainers to make is seem as though we can’t leave the EU. There already is a difference between the ROI/NI in terms of tax/vat - do you accept that? How can that work?

Of course there are issues, but the border in NI is not a reason for the 5th largest economy in the world to have to be a vassal state of the EU. It’s absolutely pathetic to use terrorism as an argument for that. We won’t be erecting any physical infrastructure, and checks can be done away from the border.

Most goods imported into the UK are NOT CHECKED. It would be impossible. Do you accept that?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It's the only deal on the table that fits May's red lines. The EU would be more than happy to reach other deals that result in a softer Brexit.

I have seen numerous EU statements saying the WA cannot be reopened. When have they said they will renegotiate/open it?

 

[larus]

I have seen numerous EU statements saying the WA cannot be reopened. When have they said they will open it?

As they have seen a leaver government now willing to actually leave without a deal, there have been comments from various EU parties that they are open to discussions.

Now, when us leavers said this would be that case if we threatened No Deal, we were ridiculed. But again, the reaminers have proven to be so out of touch with reality. All the time the EU think the parliament will block a No Deal Brexit, they have no incentive to negotiate. Now they have seen a different government, they are starting to slowly adjust,

 

[Murray 17]

Again. The original referendum gave us a "what" for the outcome.

A second referendum would give the opportunity to choose a brexit or remain.

If you are so democratic you wouldn't have anything to worry about, right?

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It's ironic that you should use the word democratic, because the only party who have said they would ignore the referendum result completely, is the Liberal Democrats!

We don't need another referendum, because the 2016 one has given us a result. It's funny that just after the referendum, Remain were calling for another one because 52% was not enough. Then the argument switched to the negotiated deal not being good enough. Now the argument is that Boris is stiffling democracy, although what he is doing is perfectly legal. Someone being interviewed on the BBC this morning, even said that 54% of people voted for a party supporting a soft, or no Brexit in the last GE. That really is grasping at straws! I'm sure many Leavers voted for Labour for their social policies - Brexit is not the only issue.

All of the above shows that Remain are trying everything in their power to stop Brexit. I guess if Leave had lost, I would have wanted the same from my 'side'.

If we did have another referendum, and Leave won again, this would all continue as the Remainers again, wouldn't accept it.

I stated earlier in this thread that nobody will 'win' this argument on NSC, and I bet virtually no-one has changed sides during the 95000+ posts.

I will respectfully duck out of this thread now, as I've no intention of using up any more time debating it.

 

[theonlymikey]

The democratic voice of the HoC that overwhelmingly rejected the deal 3 times that the EU insists is the only deal we can have.

The original referendum gave us a clear mandate to leave. If a second referendum gave one to remain it's one all ... best of three?

Leave aren't brick walling anyone they are trying to enact the initial referendum result and the 2017 General election result. Democrats enact election results, undemocratic loons keep asking a question until they get the result they want.

It's not the only deal that we can have. If this was true, Norway and Switzerlands agreements with the EU simply would not exist.

Let that sink in.

We had the option to make this easy for ourselves, but three years of pandering to ultra brexiters has produced a deal the worst of both worlds.

A customs union as a result of cross party collaboration would have got a majority. No tribalism, no red lines, common sense thrown in and we would have left 5 months ago.

less than a third of the country want no deal. Less than a third of the country think proroguement is acceptable.

So let's put it back to the people .

You will either get your how or we remain. But at least nobody could argue against the result in a preference referendum.

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[theonlymikey]

I have seen numerous EU statements saying the WA cannot be reopened. When have they said they will renegotiate/open it?

In it's current form in consideration of the red lines.

Boris hasn't removed any red lines, in fact he's added more.

Remove the red lines and they will be more flexible. Tusk basically said as such after the meetings with Labour.

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[Lever]

OK, so would you overturn GE’s if one or other party has been deceitful?
How far back do you want to go?

Fact - all politicians lie. Even Lucas (so beloved by so many on here) has lied in saying she wanted a government of national unity, led by women. But it wasn’t only women, - no, they had to be remainers too, none of those horrible leaver scum. Can’t have that can we?

So, with respect, your faux outrage over the referendum is gesture politics. You don’t want to leave the EU, so try to use pious arguments to justify your desire to overturn the will of the people.

You are right about one thing at least. Of the options on offer at the moment, I would prefer not to leave the EU. But the 'will of the people' is simply misleading rhetoric; it means 52% of voters who wanted us to Leave in 2016. While I respect the integrity of their decision, I do not believe Leave success was achieved without criminal tampering - and this has been confirmed in subsequent legal rulings. If we must leave and I can think of few advantages and many disadvantages, then the type of Brexit should reflect the will of the 48% as well as the 52%.

 

[Bodian]

I have seen numerous EU statements saying the WA cannot be reopened. When have they said they will renegotiate/open it?

Given that the EU would much prefer a softer Brexit, of course they would re-open discussions towards a new deal that incorporated it.

 

[Lever]

Why don't you go on to a different thread it might broaden your horizons.

You are far too entertaining for me to do that at the moment.