[News] Leaving Neverland- Michael Jackson documentary

[Mellotron]

You realise that if someone gets murdered there will be a body, or at least there will be a sudden absence of a previously living person. Its called 'evidence'.

When someone says someone did something and all they have to back it up are their own words, this is not evidence. If the accuser can offer unique information about the accused that can be verified (and shown to not be information passed on or found on the internet - like he had a big nob and a tattoo of Peter Pan on his arse), this can help coroborate a story. Then it comes down to burdon of proof. It is not straightforward. Him being 'obviously a wrong 'un' is not evidence.

People's lives have been damaged because of authorities and the court of public opinion acting on false accusation. The former Southampton manager, Dave Jones, is a case in point. There are countless others.

When someone is dead it makes it much easier for people to accuse them of whatever. In the case of Savile the amount of evidence is overwhelming. That said, the physical evidence may well be lacking even in his case (I don't really know - to be honest I don't greatly relish reading 'he said, she said' arguments). In the case of Jackson it seems the trickle of accusations is meagre, despite him being dead. Especially given how weird he was. I would have expected a tsunami of accusations, with large numbers of credible but reluctant witnesses clearly and obviously not simply angling for a bit of fame or money (witnesses like we had with Savile).

I have seen enough acting and indeed even honest delusion in my life to know that no matter how vehement an accuser, no matter how long they have been getting psychiatric help, no matter how ****ed up their life may be, they still may be giving a false account.

I don't particularly want to be manipulated by the way the interviews etc have been presented. What I think about MJ is neither here nor there. Given the way the information is emerging, I doubt we shall ever know the truth for certain. So it is all getting a bit 'News of the World'. For these reasons, I'm out.

Very well put.

 

[Triggaaar]

Ah ok.

Yes, multiple people with a believable account of repeated rape is not the same as one person saying you're a mass murderer, and you go to prison.

Your evidence was someone saying something.

No it wasn't. The evidence I'm referring to is the testimony of more than one person (we're talking about the Jackson case here). Not 'someone'. That has been dismissed here as not being evidence. Their testimony would be enough to put Jackson away.

Stop pretending you said things you didn't.

What?

You stating "he raped them" above is also highly libellous, so unless you make clear you're speaking about a hypothetical situation and not specifically MJ, I would definitely take that down if I was you - I'm sure Bozza wouldn't appreciate it.

No it isn't, as you can't libel the dead.

 

[Triggaaar]

You realise that if someone gets murdered there will be a body, or at least there will be a sudden absence of a previously living person.

Yes I do.

Its called 'evidence'.

Yes. There is more than one type of evidence, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up a random example.

When someone says someone did something and all they have to back it up are their own words, this is not evidence. If the accuser can offer unique information about the accused that can be verified (and shown to not be information passed on or found on the internet - like he had a big nob and a tattoo of Peter Pan on his arse), this can help coroborate a story. Then it comes down to burdon of proof. It is not straightforward.

Yes, and when the accounts from different victims match each other, their statements can be used as evidence.

Him being 'obviously a wrong 'un' is not evidence.

No shit.

People's lives have been damaged because of authorities and the court of public opinion acting on false accusation. The former Southampton manager, Dave Jones, is a case in point. There are countless others.

Which has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Witness statement:
A witness statement is a signed document recording the evidence of a witness. A definition used in the UK is "a written statement signed by a person which contains the evidence which that person would be allowed to give orally".[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_statement

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Very well put.

Apparently not (see above)

 

[Mellotron]

Apparently not (see above)

Genuinely ridiculous. So tiresome. So much easier to just hold your hands up and go “fair enough, I worded that wrongly, I should’ve said X”.

 

[Jam The Man]

...

 

[symyjym]

Powerful stuff. No bullshit detected. Case closed.

 

[BBassic]

Harrowing watch.

Need to collect my thoughts on it before posting anything lengthy.

 

[bluenitsuj]

Powerful stuff. No bullshit detected. Case closed.

This is my thoughts after watching it all. 100% guilty in my opinion. Many people quote that he was found not guilty, and he was but this was for a different case, different boy/s.

 

[The Clamp]

Botty rapist or not, you wouldn’t leave him alone with your kids and that’s all I need to know that he’s a ****ing wrong un.

 

[The Clamp]

Saying something makes it evidence? What? So if I state right now that you are a serial murderer, that is enough to put you in prison, correct?

As an aside, you wouldn’t want Triggar on your side in court would you!

 

[pishhead]

Powerful stuff it may well be and that is how documentaries are supposed to be perceived. Ignore who the accused is and ignore the crimes he is accused of and it amounts to 4 hours of propaganda. You could go onto YouTube now and select a subject like flat earth or 9/11 being an inside job and be easily convinced if the videos you watch are engineered in such a way to portray one side of a story.

 

[OzMike]

It's on over here tonight, but I will be out playing in pub pool comp, so wifey will have to tell me all about it.
I myself think he is guilty as charged, though the offenses will have been sensationalised because of who he was.
Strange how 'media personalities' are given so much latitude when they are alive, it's not like they found a cure for cancer or anything.
Don't get me wrong being a muso myself, but pedestals are for real heroes.

 

[lawros left foot]

After watching the first programme in Wednesday, Mrs LLF thought it was too graphic and didn’t want to watch the second one,so, can anyone give me a brief synopsis of part 2, and whether it’s worth a watch?

 

[bluenitsuj]

After watching the first programme in Wednesday, Mrs LLF thought it was too graphic and didn’t want to watch the second one,so, can anyone give me a brief synopsis of part 2, and whether it’s worth a watch?

Definately worth watching. I thought the second part was far more powerful than the 1st.

 

[BBassic]

Having had the night to process my thoughts on it let me prefix everything by saying I 100% believe those men. No word of a lie between them. Professional actors aren't that convincing.

I do have a little trouble reconciling their need to tell the truth with the lawsuit. If it's about needing to tell the truth, and again I don't for a second think they're lying, then just do it without trying for financial gain. Or do it for a token amount of $1 or even many millions with any money received going to charities for abuse victims.

But that aside I can't feel anything but sympathy for those men. People will say, or attempt to excuse his behaviour by saying, that Jackson had his childhood stolen away from him. And that's true enough but he's done that to these two guys as well.

I still like his music. I've had great times listening to it but I don't know if I will anymore. It's hard for me to separate the music from the man.

 

[kjgood]

I didnt see part one but watched part two last night and have to admit I am confused about what I think. I can see why the boys testified when they were younger that nothing happened it was clear they were either well coached by the defense teams or nothing happened. I struggle with the concept that Mum stayed in MJ's house in a bedroom, allowing her son to sleep in a bed with MJ in another room. Then MJ buys Mum a house, what parent would allow thier child to sleep with a man in his bed? It looks all wrong.

Yes MJ was obviously messed up thats easy to see and perhaps he preferred to spend time with children because they didnt judge him, befriend him for what they could get etc.etc or a range of other reasons. I see an argument for that, but parents knowingly letting thier kids sleep in the same room/bed as him I just cant understand that.

One of the men being interviewed I saw as a credible witness in that he was messed up a bit about something was it MJ or something else his family was very messed up, but one other I wasnt so sure. I just dont know what to think, the documentary though as most are was edited to push viewers only in one direction that was clear it wasnt balanced.

I dont know what to think.

 

[Mr Bridger]

After watching the first programme in Wednesday, Mrs LLF thought it was too graphic and didn’t want to watch the second one,so, can anyone give me a brief synopsis of part 2, and whether it’s worth a watch?

Can you not watch it on your own

 

[symyjym]

Powerful stuff it may well be and that is how documentaries are supposed to be perceived. Ignore who the accused is and ignore the crimes he is accused of and it amounts to 4 hours of propaganda. You could go onto YouTube now and select a subject like flat earth or 9/11 being an inside job and be easily convinced if the videos you watch are engineered in such a way to portray one side of a story.

It is nothing like a Flat Earth or 911 conspiracy. We have seen Jackson's defence. It is all documented and he doesn't need to be alive to defend himself. The only question is whether we believe that they are being truthful and I have never seen as much truth and honesty on a subject of huge embarrassment.

The first of the two to come out is a well known choreographer and is doing very well in his own right. Would you make up a story about orally pleasuring MJ for a payout? I can think of better things in history to be remembered for.

 

[Triggaaar]

Genuinely ridiculous. So tiresome. So much easier to just hold your hands up and go “fair enough, I worded that wrongly, I should’ve said X”.

What is it I worded wrong? Some said there was no evidence. I disagree, as testimony is evidence.