Four Month Shadow Cabinet Reshuffle

[London Irish]

from someone who earlier showed confusion between debt and deficit, thats a bit rich. to remind you:



every time some highlights the increased debt in the past 6 years, all they are doing is show how little Osborne has cut, and how much the largess of the previous Labour government has burdened us with.

What is it with you Tories and your obsession with cutting things - you are just clueless in thinking this Scrooge economics works - the insipid growth under the Tories proves it doesn't.

"Largesse of the Labour government" huh? Just Tory code for flogging off the NHS

How about shrinking the debt burden by actually growing the economy? To do that you need to sort out the chronic UNDERINVESTMEST in the UK economy, and it's the Tories who currently have no answers to that.

And note no denial from you that the debt burden has absolutely exploded under the Tories.

 

[London Irish]

The answer to my question was Labour.

Being lectured about economic illiteracy by a Corbynista Socialist is a bit like listening to a speech about good bedside manner by Harold Shipman.

As for the rest of it, media conspiracy yada yada blinkered self delusion.

How many election defeats will it take to convince you that your wrong?

Blah blah indeed. No denial that the debt burden has rocketed under the Tories. Check

No denial that the Tories have presided over the worst economic recovery in British history. Check

No clue about the need for investment in the British economy. Check.

Oh you got something in about Shipman - well at least you didnt say Stevie Wonder, the next most used cliche.

Come back when you got something pal. Anything will do

 

[ForestRowSeagull]

Blah blah indeed. No denial that the debt burden has rocketed under the Tories. Check

No denial that the Tories have presided over the worst economic recovery in British history. Check

No clue about the need for investment in the British economy. Check.

Oh you got something in about Shipman - well at least you didnt say Stevie Wonder, the next most used cliche.

Come back when you got something pal. Anything will do

1) The debt hasn't 'skyrocketted' - it has increased at a decreasing rate compared to when they took over. Your graph shows this.
2) That's just a Guardian headline, what measure are you using to claim it is the worst recovery?
3) There are a million+1 theories of economic growth, just because you believe in an investment led approach that doesnt mean it is necessarily the correct way to promote more growth. There's no denying that investment levels are low in the economy at present, but there are many examples to show 'I' does not equal growth.

You're also quietly skipping over the fact that you confused debt with deficit....

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Blah blah indeed. No denial that the debt burden has rocketed under the Tories. Check

No denial that the Tories have presided over the worst economic recovery in British history. Check

No clue about the need for investment in the British economy. Check.

Oh you got something in about Shipman - well at least you didnt say Stevie Wonder, the next most used cliche.

Come back when you got something pal. Anything will do

Ooooh that's a bit rich you've been blathering on conveniently ignoring numerous factual statements and posts as well as confusing the deficit with the national debt.

Osborne has increased the deficit more than every single Labour government in history put together. Try again

Just to be clear in your world Corbyn is doing a great job, Labour are going from strength to strength and the Tories are presiding over an economic disaster so the electorate are going to swarm to Labour ...

 

[Gwylan]

Blimey, a balanced report on Corbyn and the Blairites in the Telegraph ... of all places.

Next week, the Morning Star on why Osborne is misunderstood

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Blimey, a balanced report on Corbyn and the Blairites in the Telegraph ... of all places.

Next week, the Morning Star on why Osborne is misunderstood

So as I said earlier, I personally feel he is well within his right to fill his cabinet with similar-minded people - but he shouldn't talk about a new type of politics as it's not. The point remains, many people in the centre-left feel alienated by his politics and have no one to represent them

 

[Gwylan]

So as I said earlier, I personally feel he is well within his right to fill his cabinet with similar-minded people - but he shouldn't talk about a new type of politics as it's not. The point remains, many people in the centre-left feel alienated by his politics and have no one to represent them

But, as the Telegraph points out (and how weird is it to write that?), his critics in the party pretty much support what Cameron's doing, so how would they be any better off under, say, a Cooper, Kendall or Benn leadership?

There is a case to be made for policies to the left of Tories and right of Corbyn but none of the candidates for the leadership made it during the summer. As long as that's the case, Corbyn will have a free hand

 

[beorhthelm]

What is it with you Tories and your obsession with cutting things - you are just clueless in thinking this Scrooge economics works - the insipid growth under the Tories proves it doesn't.

so to be clear then, you were congratulating Osborne on the increase of the debt? (or was it the deficit? you worked out which yet?)

you wont see me denying the debt has increased, because it has massivly. when the public sector is enlarged to the tune of hundreds of billions, thats going to happen. if you care to look back at the graph you refered to, you'd note the public debt steadily increasing before the 2008 crisis, with the benign economics and growth we had. if you follow the trajectory, assuming growth continued as it had been (fanciful, economic cycle was already on down turn) we'd have about £750bn debt now anyway.

is its scrooge economics to advocate reducing public debt when the economy is in good shape? as prescribed by Keynes, who advocated spending more when theres trouble, as a temporay measure while the real economy sorts itself out. which it fortunatly did. had we spent even more, the debt would be larger and the cost for that debt larger too, and its currently over half as much as the education budget or about the same as the defense budget.

its nice to say spending on investment would lead to growth, which applies when its private sector investment, when public sector its highly dependent where that spending goes, and most public sector expenditure does not increase growth. some infrastructure projects can help, but you wont see the benefits for 5, 10, 15 years. in the mean time, the debt has increased, which apparently you are criticising, while advocating. thats just plain confused economics.

 

[Ernest]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/01/letting-rip-against-all-this-reshuffle-garbage.html

Sums it up rather well

 

[London Irish]

You're also quietly skipping over the fact that you confused debt with deficit....

Yawn I used the wrong word while dashing off a 5-second post while doing 12 other things at work. If you want to debate this at the level of gotcha pedantry, bore off

1) The debt hasn't 'skyrocketted' - it has increased at a decreasing rate compared to when they took over. Your graph shows this

The graph actually shows debt falling under Gordon Brown's chancellorship in the early 2000 years - it can be done and was last done by a Labour government, not a Tory one. When Labour left office in 2010, the debt was just over the 800bn mark - currently under the Tories it's at the 1.5 trillion mark and by the time they are kicked out in 2020 it will be approaching 2 trillion. This was the same Tory party that got elected by saying Labour couldn't be trusted because of soaring debt. How can this be explained? Because Tories lied about the reality of tackling Britain's debt levels and still hopes we would be stupid enough to fall for it year-in, year-out as the debt piles up.

You want to talk deficit instead, would you prefer that? OK, so how many times has Osborne set targets for deficit reduction and utterly screwed them up? He promised voters in 2010 that the deficit woud be cleared by now, did he not? He utterly broke that promise - yet has the brass neck to say Labour can't be trusted. Why trust Osborne given his record of failure?

What about Osborne's record on the other deficit, the current account? That's hit historical worsts also! That could become a huge problem if we have a reckless Brexit which about half the rightwing boneheads in the current Tory Cabinet want. Wait til you see the Tory party tear itself apart (again!!) on this issue, Corbyn will be looking a whole lot better after that happens this year.

That's just a Guardian headline, what measure are you using to claim it is the worst recovery?

By length of time it takes to restore output. As Blanchflower correctly notes below: "The Tory-Lib Dem Coalition inherited an economy that was growing nicely and through their misguided austerity sucked the lifeblood out of the UK economy by their misplaced desire to reduce the size of the state"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-time-since-the-south-sea-bubble-9645218.html

3) There are a million+1 theories of economic growth, just because you believe in an investment led approach that doesnt mean it is necessarily the correct way to promote more growth. There's no denying that investment levels are low in the economy at present, but there are many examples to show 'I' does not equal growth.

Oh come on - you are waffling now. Osborne doesn't have a clue how to promote investment other than the curious wheeze of trying to suck up to the Chinese. It seems it's fine for a communist state to invest in our economy but any suggestion we do it ourselves is apparently beyond the pale? Companies are not investing - what is Osborne doing about it? Sod all.

Investment is key because it's the only way to get our shit UK productivity rates up from currently the worst in the G7 - what other "theory" do you have that can do this? Do tell. The Tories just trust to markets and have no coherent policy at all for sustained economic growth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34289704

 

[London Irish]

you wont see me denying the debt has increased, because it has massivly

Hallelujah! So here's an admittance that Tory governments = "massive increase" of debt levels

Yet the only claim to economic credibility the Tories have is that Labour is the party of debt

 

[Gwylan]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/01/letting-rip-against-all-this-reshuffle-garbage.html

Sums it up rather well

Blimey, there's now a well-balanced piece in the Mail to complement the one in the Telegraph. So, we have to bastions of the right attacking the anti-Corbyn elements of the Labour party, while the Guardian pours vitriol on the wild-eyed Marxist terrorist supporter. As Margaret Thatcher herself said "It's a funny old world."

 

[Titanic]

Shadow attorney general resigns from Corbyn's shadow cabinet just days after re-shuffle saying Labour is heading down an "increasingly negative path" ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35281203

 

[Brian Fantana]

Shadow attorney general resigns from Corbyn's shadow cabinet just days after re-shuffle saying Labour is heading down an "increasingly negative path" ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35281203

I give Corbyn six months, at the very most.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Shadow attorney general resigns from Corbyn's shadow cabinet just days after re-shuffle saying Labour is heading down an "increasingly negative path" ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35281203

So much for drawing a line under past disagreements. Will this be political death by a thousand cuts or end with a split?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

So much for drawing a line under past disagreements. Will this be political death by a thousand cuts or end with a split?

Spilt is inevitable if this 'my way or the highway' attitude continues from Corbyn.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Spilt is inevitable if this 'my way or the highway' attitude continues from Corbyn.

You're probably right. I can't see the far left giving up this chance to take control of Labour or how moderates with any self respect or integrity can stand by and watch it happen. A very messy bloody split, thank goodness there aren't any important issues facing the country as Labour indulge in ongoing internal power struggles

 

[beorhthelm]

I give Corbyn six months, at the very most.

i wouldn't be so sure of a early change. the rump of the PLP, those not signed up to Corbyn as leader, are in a state of paralysis. they cant do anything while the Labour Membership is supporting him. they'd be split two or three ways on who to replace anyway, so there's no threat unless Corbyn resigns. short of a disaster in the spring local elections, i cant see him doing that. even a lightly poor performance will be enough for him to continue, and blame it on divisions in the party, claim he has the support of membership etc etc.

the comedy will continue at least until conference season, where we'll see if he can really get the party policy behind him or not. which i reckon he will do, at which point a large number of sitting MPs will have to decide if they are still signed up for the party which will have moved strongly to the left. by then it wont be so funny as lots of people will realise what he's about, and that theres no credible opposition to the government.

 

[Titanic]

The Trident renewal debate will be fascinating

 

[Gwylan]

i wouldn't be so sure of a early change. the rump of the PLP, those not signed up to Corbyn as leader, are in a state of paralysis. they cant do anything while the Labour Membership is supporting him. they'd be split two or three ways on who to replace anyway, so there's no threat unless Corbyn resigns. short of a disaster in the spring local elections, i cant see him doing that. even a lightly poor performance will be enough for him to continue, and blame it on divisions in the party, claim he has the support of membership etc etc.

the comedy will continue at least until conference season, where we'll see if he can really get the party policy behind him or not. which i reckon he will do, at which point a large number of sitting MPs will have to decide if they are still signed up for the party which will have moved strongly to the left. by then it wont be so funny as lots of people will realise what he's about, and that theres no credible opposition to the government.

Exactly. He was overwhelmingly elected - nearly twice as many votes as the other candidates put together. Since then, membership has risen sharply and Corbyn has promised those members more of a say in policy. I don't see any reason why those members will suddenly say that he's not the one we want.

The spring elections won't be a big loser for him as Labour did pretty well last time around - they'd be expecting to lose a few whoever was in charge. But yes, a few MPs are going to have to decide which path to go on. I really can't see Corbyn going before the election