Brand v Paxman

[topbanana36]

I don't see the effect his wealth on the message, it is right or wrong surely? If it is wrong should we ignore the wrong doings because they find the arts?

Sorry but your post makes no sense to me.

I'm suggesting if it wasn't for these massive corporations that he hates so much where would he be?

 

[BadFish]

I'm suggesting if it wasn't for these massive corporations that he hates so much where would he be?

So everything else should be accepted because while they take with one hand they throw back a few crumbs with the other?

 

[topbanana36]

So everything else should be accepted because while they take with one hand they throw back a few crumbs with the other?

Unfortunately the way of the world. However, we don't accept, that is why we have a democratic voting system.

 

[BadFish]

I know a teacher who's been teaching for over 30 years now. He says the biggest change since he's been teaching is the amount of autistic children per class! It's really can't be a coincidence.

Of course it can, this is a ridiculous thing to say.

 

[BadFish]

You first .. ;-)

The sharp increase in diagnosed autism is unknown. Although I think it would be safe to assume that it has much to do with the fact that our understanding and recognition of the condition is in it's infancy. As we continue to understand it further we are going to notice more people who are affected. A good example of this is that we are at a sharp increase in our understanding of austim in girls which will have a knock on effect of causing more girls to be diagnosed.

Having said all this I also believe that eventually a link will be proven between Autism and something. One of the more interesting ideas I read about recently was the role that bacteria in our stomach play in our health and the effects on that bacteria of the hyperclean and sterile society we live in.

http://theconversation.com/can-a-gut-bacteria-imbalance-really-cause-autism-9128

A link if anyone is interested.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Sorry for going back a bit, but I feel this thread needs a few points re Autism:

There is no such thing as "mild asperger's". As I have already pointed out earlier in this thread, asperger's is autism. It is just a specific level on the autistic spectrum that has been given a different name. It is still autism. "mild asperger's" would be otherwise known as "an autistic spectrum disorder". No matter, it is a label and not that important.

Autism does not necessarily give you a special talent. It is true that the incidence of savantism is higher in autistic people, but not by a huge amount. It is a common misconception that having an autistic child means that this child may be gifted - they most likely will not. This misconception is caused because when the media talk about autism, they only really talk about these gifted people. There is no correlation re your "autistic level" and what if any special talent you will have. It is true that many great people from history, if alive today, would be diagnosed with autism - Mozart, Isaac Newton etc - essentially because their social skills were supposedly limited (ie they were reclusive, looked upon as odd or weird etc)

The incidence of autism is growing sharply. Why? no-one currently knows. Personally, I believe it is a combination of things, most importantly diagnostic abilities in the medical world! Japan banned the MMR and the incidence of autism carried on growing. The incidence of autism in rural South Africa is growing and those kids are not usually immunised.

Anyway, once a child has been diagnosed with autism, there really is no point in wondering how they got it. This seems to be the thrust when autism is discussed on TV - "how did they get it", rather than "what must we do to make their lives better". My son was diagnosed 10 years and I really could not give 2 hoots where he got it from. All I am concerned about is how I can make his life easier and better.

I am appalled, but not surprised, when anyone with a diagnosed child spends more of their time arguing about MMR jabs and other causes, than putting their energies into helping their child. It is of no consequence to your child how they got it. There is no cure (and I would not use one on my son even if there was). Your time would be better spent helping your child with autism, rather than arguing the toss about how they got it.

 

[BadFish]

Sorry for going back a bit, but I feel this thread needs a few points re Autism:

There is no such thing as "mild asperger's". As I have already pointed out earlier in this thread, asperger's is autism. It is just a specific level on the autistic spectrum that has been given a different name. It is still autism. "mild asperger's" would be otherwise known as "an autistic spectrum disorder". No matter, it is a label and not that important.

Autism does not necessarily give you a special talent. It is true that the incidence of savantism is higher in autistic people, but not by a huge amount. It is a common misconception that having an autistic child means that this child may be gifted - they most likely will not. This misconception is caused because when the media talk about autism, they only really talk about these gifted people. There is no correlation re your "autistic level" and what if any special talent you will have. It is true that many great people from history, if alive today, would be diagnosed with autism - Mozart, Isaac Newton etc - essentially because their social skills were supposedly limited (ie they were reclusive, looked upon as odd or weird etc)

The incidence of autism is growing sharply. Why? no-one currently knows. Personally, I believe it is a combination of things, most importantly diagnostic abilities in the medical world! Japan banned the MMR and the incidence of autism carried on growing. The incidence of autism in rural South Africa is growing and those kids are not usually immunised.

Anyway, once a child has been diagnosed with autism, there really is no point in wondering how they got it. This seems to be the thrust when autism is discussed on TV - "how did they get it", rather than "what must we do to make their lives better". My son was diagnosed 10 years and I really could not give 2 hoots where he got it from. All I am concerned about is how I can make his life easier and better.

I am appalled, but not surprised, when anyone with a diagnosed child spends more of their time arguing about MMR jabs and other causes, than putting their energies into helping their child. It is of no consequence to your child how they got it. There is no cure (and I would not use one on my son even if there was). Your time would be better spent helping your child with autism, rather than arguing the toss about how they got it.

Mild Aspergers I think is more about describing it's effect on an individual child. I work with many kids with this diagnosis and it is apparent that it effects some more than others and each to different degrees and different times. "comes is waves" was how Tony Attwood described it. Although this part is academic in here as the Aspergfers diagnosis is being phased out in favour of 'High Functioning Autism'.

I agree with all but the last two paragraphs. I think it is human nature to wonder about the causes of a condition that causes so much upheaval in one's lives. There are many aspects of my boy that i would not change but if knowing the causes of the condition helped in any way to prevent others suffering the crippling anxiety, social awkwardness and uncontrollable range that we experience on a regular basis then I am happy to continue discussing it.

Surely to really understand the condition, we have to understand it's causes?

 

[KZNSeagull]

Mild Aspergers I think is more about describing it's effect on an individual child. I work with many kids with this diagnosis and it is apparent that it effects some more than others and each to different degrees and different times. "comes is waves" was how Tony Attwood described it. Although this part is academic in here as the Aspergfers diagnosis is being phased out in favour of 'High Functioning Autism'.

I agree with all but the last two paragraphs. I think it is human nature to wonder about the causes of a condition that causes so much upheaval in one's lives. There are many aspects of my boy that i would not change but if knowing the causes of the condition helped in any way to prevent others suffering the crippling anxiety, social awkwardness and uncontrollable range that we experience on a regular basis then I am happy to continue discussing it.

Surely to really understand the condition, we have to understand it's causes?

High functioning autism is a better description, but at the end of the day it is just a label. Each autistic child is unique, so the label gives you some idea of what to expect, but it is up to us as parents to take that information on board and adapt it to their particular child.

Personally, it is interesting to know where autism comes from, but it is not of any consequence to my son. My primary interest is in what I can do to make my child's life easier. He already has it and it has no cure, so where it comes from is not going to help him.

If I can give advice to other parents of autistic children, I will, but far too often I find that they are more interesting in it's cause and what drugs they can use to make their lives easier, rather than the child's. They are more interesting in listening to people like Jenni McCarthy who like to apportion blame, than they are of many others who try to help their child.

Do we need to understand it's causes to understand the condition? No, I don't think so. We do not know what causes it yet many autistic children given the right support structure, thrive.

Of course there is a place for people to try to find it's causes and rightly so, but too often the debate is about this and not how society can help those children that already have it. Judging from the recent experiences of a friend of mine in the UK, the support for high functioning autistic children has not moved on in Sussex since my experiences with it 10 years ago. It is this that should be given priority, particularly if recent stats are to be believed in that 1 in 50 children are now diagnosed (whether those diagnoses are correct is another debate).

So, I suppose what I am saying is that it is fine to debate the causes and try to get to the bottom of it, but not at the expense of those families and children that live with it every day. My objection on this thread is that a poster has used his personal "knowledge" of asbergers (sic) as an excuse for pointing the blame at MMR, when he, like everyone else, does not have the first clue what causes it. This just annoys me, I'm afraid.

 

[BadFish]

High functioning autism is a better description, but at the end of the day it is just a label. Each autistic child is unique, so the label gives you some idea of what to expect, but it is up to us as parents to take that information on board and adapt it to their particular child.

Personally, it is interesting to know where autism comes from, but it is not of any consequence to my son. My primary interest is in what I can do to make my child's life easier. He already has it and it has no cure, so where it comes from is not going to help him.

If I can give advice to other parents of autistic children, I will, but far too often I find that they are more interesting in it's cause and what drugs they can use to make their lives easier, rather than the child's. They are more interesting in listening to people like Jenni McCarthy who like to apportion blame, than they are of many others who try to help their child.

Do we need to understand it's causes to understand the condition? No, I don't think so. We do not know what causes it yet many autistic children given the right support structure, thrive.

Of course there is a place for people to try to find it's causes and rightly so, but too often the debate is about this and not how society can help those children that already have it. Judging from the recent experiences of a friend of mine in the UK, the support for high functioning autistic children has not moved on in Sussex since my experiences with it 10 years ago. It is this that should be given priority, particularly if recent stats are to be believed in that 1 in 50 children are now diagnosed (whether those diagnoses are correct is another debate).

So, I suppose what I am saying is that it is fine to debate the causes and try to get to the bottom of it, but not at the expense of those families and children that live with it every day. My objection on this thread is that a poster has used his personal "knowledge" of asbergers (sic) as an excuse for pointing the blame at MMR, when he, like everyone else, does not have the first clue what causes it. This just annoys me, I'm afraid.

Fair enough, I can't say i have experienced the situation you describe. I am sure I would find it as frustrating as you do. As for what is on this thread I think until we find out what if anything causes it people will constantly speculate and discuss possible causes.

There is some very good things happening here in Australian and I am very positive about my boy's future. Good luck with everything.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Fair enough, I can't say i have experienced the situation you describe. I am sure I would find it as frustrating as you do. As for what is on this thread I think until we find out what if anything causes it people will constantly speculate and discuss possible causes.

There is some very good things happening here in Australian and I am very positive about my boy's future. Good luck with everything.

That's good news - good luck to you too!

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Sorry for going back a bit, but I feel this thread needs a few points re Autism:

There is no such thing as "mild asperger's". As I have already pointed out earlier in this thread, asperger's is autism. It is just a specific level on the autistic spectrum that has been given a different name. It is still autism. "mild asperger's" would be otherwise known as "an autistic spectrum disorder". No matter, it is a label and not that important.

Autism does not necessarily give you a special talent. It is true that the incidence of savantism is higher in autistic people, but not by a huge amount. It is a common misconception that having an autistic child means that this child may be gifted - they most likely will not. This misconception is caused because when the media talk about autism, they only really talk about these gifted people. There is no correlation re your "autistic level" and what if any special talent you will have. It is true that many great people from history, if alive today, would be diagnosed with autism - Mozart, Isaac Newton etc - essentially because their social skills were supposedly limited (ie they were reclusive, looked upon as odd or weird etc)

The incidence of autism is growing sharply. Why? no-one currently knows. Personally, I believe it is a combination of things, most importantly diagnostic abilities in the medical world! Japan banned the MMR and the incidence of autism carried on growing. The incidence of autism in rural South Africa is growing and those kids are not usually immunised.

Anyway, once a child has been diagnosed with autism, there really is no point in wondering how they got it. This seems to be the thrust when autism is discussed on TV - "how did they get it", rather than "what must we do to make their lives better". My son was diagnosed 10 years and I really could not give 2 hoots where he got it from. All I am concerned about is how I can make his life easier and better.

I am appalled, but not surprised, when anyone with a diagnosed child spends more of their time arguing about MMR jabs and other causes, than putting their energies into helping their child. It is of no consequence to your child how they got it. There is no cure (and I would not use one on my son even if there was). Your time would be better spent helping your child with autism, rather than arguing the toss about how they got it.

I am in a very similar situation to you. Let me tell you my story.

My son has Aspergers too, he is a great kid and has done really well in mainstream education and will be off to Uni soon.

We had him vaccinated with MMR as a matter of course (Mum and I are both Healthcare professionals) job done.

I took him for the jab and was alone at home with him a few hours later when he became unwell. He had a very high temperature not responding to calpol and proceeded to have a major fit as a consequence. Not a febrile convulsion ( I've seen this often) but a grand mal seizure.

None of these things are unheard of following all immunisations and I was well trained so didn't panic, just sorted him out until he recovered.

This is the thing. Before that day he was doing exceptionally well and was ahead of his predicted centile the day of the MMR was the beginning of a new chapter. He basically stopped developing. The speech he had learnt was wiped out and he became distant and withdrawn. We called it " stop year " and he basically ground to a developmental halt. Someone had pressed pause.

I know that the aetiology of Aspergers often follows this trajectory but I am sure, as only a father can be, that on this specific day, with that specific little boy the MMR had a role to play. Obviously I accept that mass vaccination benefits all, I support the MMR program and certainly don't blame it but I went as far as I could go within the Medical hierarchy to discuss this.

If the clinicians are honest enough they will say "it is LIKELY that there will be, very occasionally, say one in two million, a child who may become vaccine damaged and end up with an autistic spectrum diagnosis but no one within policy making circles would ever accept it because, just one demonstrated case would cause the total failure of the vaccination program as parents would withdraw en masse and Government would be sued by everyone with an autistic child as they are the sponsors of the program...not to mention the big Pharma houses.

My family was unlucky but were rare enough to not matter too much in the overall picture.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Heartening posts from both BH and KZN. You both come over as excellent parents and sane, rational thinkers.

I don't think any advocate of vaccination would argue that they are 100% safe. They simply aren't. However, the benefits to the population as a whole are a reason for continuation despite isolated cases of side effects.

Anti vaccinators often point to the case of Robert Fletcher, the main UK compensation case. In fact I like to link to it too (so it's below). Firstly to acknowledge there is a tiny risk but also to point out that the jury of a judge and two doctors specifically stated in the summing up that the ruling had no relevance to the link between autism and MMR that remains unproven at best, or in the experience of Japan, discredited.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-11125343

 

[KZNSeagull]

I am in a very similar situation to you. Let me tell you my story.

My son has Aspergers too, he is a great kid and has done really well in mainstream education and will be off to Uni soon.

We had him vaccinated with MMR as a matter of course (Mum and I are both Healthcare professionals) job done.

I took him for the jab and was alone at home with him a few hours later when he became unwell. He had a very high temperature not responding to calpol and proceeded to have a major fit as a consequence. Not a febrile convulsion ( I've seen this often) but a grand mal seizure.

None of these things are unheard of following all immunisations and I was well trained so didn't panic, just sorted him out until he recovered.

This is the thing. Before that day he was doing exceptionally well and was ahead of his predicted centile the day of the MMR was the beginning of a new chapter. He basically stopped developing. The speech he had learnt was wiped out and he became distant and withdrawn. We called it " stop year " and he basically ground to a developmental halt. Someone had pressed pause.

I know that the aetiology of Aspergers often follows this trajectory but I am sure, as only a father can be, that on this specific day, with that specific little boy the MMR had a role to play. Obviously I accept that mass vaccination benefits all, I support the MMR program and certainly don't blame it but I went as far as I could go within the Medical hierarchy to discuss this.

If the clinicians are honest enough they will say "it is LIKELY that there will be, very occasionally, say one in two million, a child who may become vaccine damaged and end up with an autistic spectrum diagnosis but no one within policy making circles would ever accept it because, just one demonstrated case would cause the total failure of the vaccination program as parents would withdraw en masse and Government would be sued by everyone with an autistic child as they are the sponsors of the program...not to mention the big Pharma houses.

My family was unlucky but were rare enough to not matter too much in the overall picture.

Sorry to hear this story, but I am delighted that he has progressed so well. At what age was this - I guess this was the jab at about 4/5?

My opinion is that it is entirely possible that MMR or other vaccinations trigger something in some children that is already there and may or may not come out at some point. Jenni McCarthy tells a similar story. But I do not believe that MMR can cause autism - I believe that it is most likely genetic (some of my son's autistic traits I see in myself, for example).

But I am really pleased that he has done so well and that is testament to both him and you as his parents. Good luck to him at Uni!

 

[beorhthelm]

If the clinicians are honest enough they will say "it is LIKELY that there will be, very occasionally, say one in two million, a child who may become vaccine damaged and end up with an autistic spectrum diagnosis

they cant say that because there's nothing solid to back it up. in the story, what was the trigger: the jab process? the inactive ingredients? the virus? the child he was playing with? the fact its unclear what causes autism makes that a difficult thing to judge. the prevailing theory was that it was the mercury based thiomersal, but thats been removed and incident rates continues, and there no claimed correlation with flu jabs or others that do contain it. the other theory is that its one of the virus, but that would mean single jabs would show the same problem as would getting the disease itself. could be a reaction to having a jab, but again there's no reports like yours related to other jabs.

so its difficult for a clear accurate warning, and no medicine is 100% successfull or without any side effects for the whole population. of course its almost certainly one of these factors, but the anacdotal accounts such as yours aren't heard when its after a different vaccine or contraction of the disease.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Ironically, if vaccinations were stopped completely, the global population would go down and it could therefore be easier to implement "the revolution" to benefit all.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

they cant say that because there's nothing solid to back it up. in the story, what was the trigger: the jab process? the inactive ingredients? the virus? the child he was playing with? the fact its unclear what causes autism makes that a difficult thing to judge. the prevailing theory was that it was the mercury based thiomersal, but thats been removed and incident rates continues, and there no claimed correlation with flu jabs or others that do contain it. the other theory is that its one of the virus, but that would mean single jabs would show the same problem as would getting the disease itself. could be a reaction to having a jab, but again there's no reports like yours related to other jabs.

so its difficult for a clear accurate warning, and no medicine is 100% successfull or without any side effects for the whole population. of course its almost certainly one of these factors, but the anacdotal accounts such as yours aren't heard when its after a different vaccine or contraction of the disease.

Possibly a combination of things. We'd noticed that he did really badly with his imms beforehand he had always reacted with cysts or other over active immune responses before so we were braced for a reaction of some sort.

I think that, whatever flimsy evidence exists, around vaccination is that some individuals have a pre existing immunity problem, I dread to think what would have happened had he caught measles or mumps anyway, which can lead to a domino effect when they're exposed to multiple pathogens at once. Measles encephalopathy is a killer in some kids leaving them with permanent brain injury or worse. My guess is that my boy suffered a derivative of this but, of course, I could be wrong.

 

[Nibble]

well done you for missing the point. the "first world war" was never known as that until named so in retrospect decades later. it didnt involve the world. the second world war only spanned the world because the japanese decided to attack the US, and the British interests in the far east. had they limited themselves to China and SE asia (which they already controlled before 1939) they probably would have come out of the 40's as a global power. they had no real common cause with the Germans. the cold war adverseries chose to fight through proxies to control outlying parts of the world, but avoided actually coming to war, knowing its was a Bad Idea. that will probably be the norm from now on, as we see with Syria (Iran vs Saudi). i didnt say there would be another war - there certainly will be - only that it probably wont be global.

Point of fact. The First World War was actually referred to as WW1 and The First Great War as it was happening. Apologies, as you were.

 

[Guinness Boy]

you know, there will probably never be a global conflict again. there has only ever been one really, when two nations who thought they had aligned interests made war at the same time. the fact they were on the other side of the world served a strategic purpose, but hadnt anything in common. the Cold War had genuine common cause of ideology but thats gone. there are currently arguably 5 power bases around the world and i dont see that chanign for the forseable, any future conlficts will be regional with some attempts to steer them without real involvment from those world powers. just a beer fart for a friday night.

Nibble's just reminded me I owe you a reply.

Specifically I can see a conflict caused by energy involving the Russians and US. Anyone relying on those countries for their gas supplies would be naturally drawn in. I can also see a situation where warming and lack of water in Africa lead to even more civil wars and emigration from certain parts of that continent. Possibly the same part the Chinese are currently getting heavily involved in. Most conflicts these days involve many, many countries thanks to the UN and the propensity of countries to align themselves to the USA. The participants are global in nature even if the event they are taking part in isn't even called a war, let alone a world one.

 

[Nibble]

Every single kid I've met whose parents have had them diagnosed with Aspergers/Autism (or mucking about as it used to be called) just seems a bit wimpy to me rather than ill. They usually fall into two distinct categories, chavvy parents whose kid won't pull their socks up or upper middle class parents whose kid thinks they are a bit more special than the others and rules don't apply to them. Most can usually be found sitting on the couch at 11am on a schoolday. God help them when they get to working age, they'll be straight on benefits as they won't be able to associate work with reward as most of them just get allowed to behave how they want and get to go and do whatever their specific supposed savant trait is, usually they get to draw or play with model bricks or summat while the other kids get on with learning useful stuff.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Every single kid I've met whose parents have had them diagnosed with Aspergers/Autism (or mucking about as it used to be called) just seems a bit wimpy to me rather than ill. They usually fall into two distinct categories, chavvy parents whose kid won't pull their socks up or upper middle class parents whose kid thinks they are a bit more special than the others and rules don't apply to them. Most can usually be found sitting on the couch at 11am on a schoolday. God help them when they get to working age, they'll be straight on benefits as they won't be able to associate work with reward as most of them just get allowed to behave how they want and get to go and do whatever their specific supposed savant trait is, usually they get to draw or play with model bricks or summat while the other kids get on with learning useful stuff.

1/10