Is the FFP system justified?

[Creaky]

Much has been discussed about the effects of FFP on the behaviour of clubs and what further measures need to be taken to achieve real FFP.

What I haven't seen is much discussion as to whether or not the system itself is justified and whether or not it infringes on individuals rights to run the clubs they own in the way want.

If I decided to set up a business making and selling widgets as a hobby then there is nothing to stop me buying an existing widget company, spending as much as I want to buy the best possible manufacturing processes, offer as high a pay structure as I want in order to get the best possible production staff and the best possible sales force.

I could sell those widgets at a loss, undercutting the opposition and becoming the biggest and best widget seller in the country - nobody can turn round and say you can't do that. So long as I have the financial substance to carry this out then I can pursue my hobby without interference.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This has been discussed many times before. The FL FFP was voted in democratically by its member clubs. It does not infringe on the members right's as it was the members who wanted it.

And why start a new thread?

 

[Grombleton]

Much has been discussed about the effects of FFP on the behaviour of clubs and what further measures need to be taken to achieve real FFP.

What I haven't seen is much discussion as to whether or not the system itself is justified and whether or not it infringes on individuals rights to run the clubs they own in the way want.

If I decided to set up a business making and selling widgets as a hobby then there is nothing to stop me buying an existing widget company, spending as much as I want to buy the best possible manufacturing processes, offer as high a pay structure as I want in order to get the best possible production staff and the best possible sales force.

I could sell those widgets at a loss, undercutting the opposition and becoming the biggest and best widget seller in the country - nobody can turn round and say you can't do that. So long as I have the financial substance to carry this out then I can pursue my hobby without interference.

That's all correct in theory, but the football clubs are also governed by a higher body - if they set a rule, they are obligated to adhere to it.

 

[Creaky]

This has been discussed many times before. The FL FFP was voted in democratically by its member clubs. It does not infringe on the members right's as it was the members who wanted it.

And why start a new thread?

Why not

So because a majority of league members at a point in time voted in favour of a rule this cannot be challenged at some time in the future? It's also difficult to see why many clubs pay lip service to the system they "support" whilst at the same time trying to find ways of circumventing the rules and/or ignoring them.

I just find it interesting that such a system seems to have been publicly accepted as a "good thing" by all sectors, (apart from a number of agents who are making a legal challenge), owners, players and fans, without questioning the justification for it.

 

[sparkie]

This has been discussed many times before. The FL FFP was voted in democratically by its member clubs. It does not infringe on the members right's as it was the members who wanted it.

And why start a new thread?

It is a restriction on business practice, I'd be very surprised if it survived a legal challenge at the end of the day, and in this respect I'm sure it won't be with us forever.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It is a restriction on business practice, I'd be very surprised if it survived a legal challenge at the end of the day, and in this respect I'm sure it won't be with us forever.

But each FL club chose to adhere to certain rules and regulations when they signed up to become a member. Rules and regulations which they also helped develop and then chose via a vote. It was their choice. And each club has chosen FFP via the terms of their membership. It's no different to many other self-regulatory groups or voluntary bodies/codes of conduct which other industries decide sign up to.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Of course it is. Player wages should be the first things cut.

Craig Conway, for example. Whatever he gets paid, he doesn't deserve even half after his "performance" yesterday. He is the reason why bringing in a load of loans isn't the answer. Couldn't have cared less.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But each FL club chose to adhere to certain rules and regulations when they signed up to become a member. Rules and regulations which they also helped develop and then chose via a vote. It was their choice. And each club has chose to do it via the terms of their membership. It's no different to many other self-regulatory groups or voluntary bodies/codes of conduct which other industries decide sign up to.

The test will come when teams, who have previously voted to agree to those regulations, blatantly flout them. There are supposed penalties involved which will benefit those who keep within the regulations.
I'll believe that when I see it.

 

[sparkie]

But each FL club chose to adhere to certain rules and regulations when they signed up to become a member. Rules and regulations which they also helped develop and then chose via a vote. It was their choice. And each club has chosen FFP via the terms of their membership. It's no different to many other self-regulatory groups or voluntary bodies/codes of conduct which other industries decide sign up to.

But I'm sure there wasn't 100% backing. It only takes 1 club, or interested body to take legal action. The conflict will come when a club is fined and doesn't want to pay !

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The test will come when teams, who have previously voted to agree to those regulations, blatantly flout them. There are supposed penalties involved which will benefit those who keep within the regulations.
I'll believe that when I see it.

I have faith in it. The FL has consistently and successfully managed to impose fines, transfer embargoes and points deductions on clubs for a variety of misdemeanors over the years. I recall there was the same idea that clubs could easily circumvent, or challenge via court, the points deduction for administration via holding companies. This has not proven to be the case. I don't see FFP being any different to this and I have faith the FL will deliver.

 

[El Presidente]

FFP was set up as a means of trying to restrict the growth in player wages in the Championship, L1 and L2.

In the PL and Champions League the intention is to preserve the self perpetuating cartel who qualify for the Champions Lseague each year, and prevent another Manchester City being created that upsets the applecart.

There will be legal challenges, both to FFP, but perhaps more intriguingly to the existence of the transfer system.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I have faith in it. The FL has consistently and successfully managed to impose fines, transfer embargoes and points deductions on clubs for a variety of misdemeanors over the years. I recall there was the same idea that clubs could easily circumvent, or challenge via court, the points deduction for administration via holding companies. This has not proven to be the case. I don't see FFP being any different to this and I have faith the FL will deliver.

You have more faith than me. Pompey has got away with murder, albeit having had points deducted.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But I'm sure there wasn't 100% backing. It only takes 1 club, or interested body to take legal action. The conflict will come when a club is fined and doesn't want to pay !

And if a club breaks their rules of membership they could get kicked out of the FL. I am not sure how long you have supported Brighton but there was a vote to expel us from the league in 97. Clubs would be stupid to challenge it. Ask yourself why don't clubs challenge every other rule they don't agree with?

 

[Questions]

But I'm sure there wasn't 100% backing. It only takes 1 club, or interested body to take legal action. The conflict will come when a club is fined and doesn't want to pay !

If Forest flout the rules - as is the rumour - then I cannot see how fines are going to penalise them? They're breaking the rules because they can, because they have a very wealthy owner who will swap a few financial penalties for the dream and subsequent financial rewards getting to the Premier League brings.
It would have to be a massive points deduction for it to bring certain clubs into line surely ?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You have more faith than me. Pompey has got away with murder, albeit having had points deducted.

I generally think the FL do a good job, don't shirk their responsibilities and strike a good balance between regulation, administration, looking after clubs, supporters and everyone's economic needs. I do have faith. The FA could learn a thing or two from the FL.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If Forest flout the rules - as is the rumour - then I cannot see how fines are going to penalise them? They're breaking the rules because they can, because they have a very wealthy owner who will swap a few financial penalties for the dream and subsequent financial rewards getting to the Premier League brings.
It would have to be a massive points deduction for it to bring certain clubs into line surely ?

There is also supposed to be a transfer embargo but all that means is that clubs have to ask permission for transfers. It didn't hamper Watford last season.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There is also supposed to be a transfer embargo but all that means is that clubs have to ask permission for transfers. It didn't hamper Watford last season.

I understand that Watford exploited a loop hole which has subsequently been closed.

 

[nwgull]

Much has been discussed about the effects of FFP on the behaviour of clubs and what further measures need to be taken to achieve real FFP.

What I haven't seen is much discussion as to whether or not the system itself is justified and whether or not it infringes on individuals rights to run the clubs they own in the way want.

If I decided to set up a business making and selling widgets as a hobby then there is nothing to stop me buying an existing widget company, spending as much as I want to buy the best possible manufacturing processes, offer as high a pay structure as I want in order to get the best possible production staff and the best possible sales force.

I could sell those widgets at a loss, undercutting the opposition and becoming the biggest and best widget seller in the country - nobody can turn round and say you can't do that. So long as I have the financial substance to carry this out then I can pursue my hobby without interference.

Everyone would buy your widgets and all the other widget makers would go out of business. If this happened in football there would be no football matches, or at least not any matches that are competitive and would make people want to pay to watch.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I understand that Watford exploited a loop hole which has subsequently been closed.

So they now 'buy' their players from Granada and Udinese, for a knock down nominal price. All with the rules, of course.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So they now 'buy' their players from Granada and Udinese, for a knock down nominal price. All with the rules, of course.

I must admit I do not know the full details. What happened to all those loan players they had last season? Did they sign them all on permanent contracts?