How many times did the northstand get run by other fans?

[life on mars 73]

If the fences hadn't been at Hillsborough, the slaughter wouldn't have occurred. People could have escaped in time.

So why were the fences there ?

 

[Lenny Rider]

I remember some Birmingham (zulus?) steaming into the back of the north west terrace when the gates had been opened near the end of a game, one sunny saturday, not sure when, and to my amazement being fought off by a few terrace regulars at the back.

Ocotober 1984, the North Stand roof was still under construction so it was shut, the Zulu's 'top boy' was a 20 stone coloured gentleman called Keith Cuddles, he and his family once appeared on Family Fortunes with Les Dennis, I recall seeing him, bedecked in denim, looking like Shakin Stevens in negative, leading the assault on the north west, it was the small passage way between the main stand and the lego stand.

Aas luck would have it someone had left a milk crate of empties out for the uNiagte man to collect at some point so the Brighton failthful had relevant ammo to ward off their attackers.

Once the volley of milk bottles had been despatched Sussex Police moved in and broke it all up.

 

[xenophon]

If the fences hadn't been at Hillsborough, the slaughter wouldn't have occurred. People could have escaped in time.

So why were the fences there ?

How many other football league grounds had fences at the same time as Hillsborough? How many had crushing deaths?

Read the Taylor Report, hooligans did not cause any deaths at Hillsborough

 

[Noldi]

game also memorable for pensioner being crushed and dieing at the front of the NS....!!!

He came from the Horsham area, but didnt travel on the supporters bus, he used to go by car with his Son, Always had great chats with him when we met in the town, True supporter RIP.

Sons name Pete cant remember his name.

Noldi

 

[life on mars 73]

I originally said "indirectly caused" by hooliganism, not directly.

Fences went up at grounds as a direct consequence of hooliganism. That's why those poor fans were caged in like wild animals on that awful day. That's why they couldn't escape the overcrowding, which of course was caused by incompetent policing.

A horrible combination of circumstances, in which the preceding history of 20 years of hooliganism played a part.

 

[xenophon]

I originally said "indirectly caused" by hooliganism, not directly.

Then football itself is to blame on that logic, if football didn't exist there would've been no match that day, 95 people wouldn't have died. What's the difference?

Fences went up at grounds as a direct consequence of hooliganism. That's why those poor fans were caged in like wild animals on that awful day. That's why they couldn't escape the overcrowding, which of course was caused by incompetent policing.

Now you're admitting the real cause of the disaster, why was that so hard?

A horrible combination of circumstances, in which the preceding history of 20 years of hooliganism played a part.

Why stop at 20 years? You can trace back causes that 'played a part' to the formation of the Football Association in 1863.

As an aside, you might be interested in reading the book "Hooligan: A History of Respectable Fears" by Geoffrey Pearson, and see how far the much-maligned "hooligan" character stretches back into history.

 

[life on mars 73]

I think that when you're looking at any historical phenomenon or event, there's never a single cause which explains everything. Life is never quite that simple, is it ?

Thinking about Hillsborough, there were lots of causes, and lots of factors that came together in a fatal combination that day.

In order to gain a real understanding of how the tragedy came about, we have to accept that a lot of specific mistakes were made, e.g. the decision to allocate the Leppings Lane end to LFC, the decision to open the gates without closing off the central sections, the delay on the police's part in seeing and understanding what was really happening.

But I think you have to consider these events against the general backdrop of the prevailing football culture of the time - that fans were treated little better than animals, that there was an expectation of crowd disorder. And all that has an awful lot to do with the culture of hooliganism that had blighted football since the late 60's.

 

[xenophon]

The bigger blight on football in my opinion is today - the "Champions League" and keeping the G14 clubs in the money pot at the expense of the have-nots, billionaire owners, Sky/Murdoch, extortionate ticketing schemes, dickhead overpaid footballers, sanitised all-seater stadiums, the list goes on and on.

Hooligans were a small part of the game culture, and the game itself was definitely in better health back when a few lads belting each other was seen as the nadir of the history of the beautiful game. My opinion of course, but you can generally stick your post-'Soccer AM' '3-D Super Sunday' football and the majority of your nouveau (rich) fans up your all-seated jacksies

 

[life on mars 73]

Not looking forward to the Falmer matchday experience then ?

 

[xenophon]

Who knows what it's going to be like at Falmer?

But I do know it will be more expensive than say, watching 4 times European Champions Bayern Munich at the Allianz Arena, and that I can stand on a terrace at the latter and not be hassled by stewards for enjoying myself

Go figure

 

[highway61]

My late Father used to tell me about "punch ups" with Millwall fans on the Chicken Run Terrace in the 50's and not isolated

 

[life on mars 73]

Sure, we all know that football hooliganism wasn't invented in the 1960's.

And there are plenty of stories of unruly behaviour by young Englishmen going back many hundreds of years. Londoners used to live in fear of the "mob" back in the 18th century. Back in ancient Rome, there used to be massive riots between supporters of rival chariot teams that used to last for days.

And so on....

But the fact is that English football hooliganism became a particular problem in the years after 1966 (now, is that purely co-incidental ? hmmm...) to the point in the mid-1980's when it was seriously suggested that the game should be shut down.

I lived through that era, and I'm interested to discuss how and why it all came about.

 

[Hiney]

Tim Carder wrote a superb series for the Collectors & Historians Society called (I think) 'A History of Crowd Disorder' which covers many of the 'offs' mentioned above.

If I can dig it out later (and Tim gives me permission to reproduce it), I'll get it on here.

 

[highway61]

Sure, we all know that football hooliganism wasn't invented in the 1960's.

And there are plenty of stories of unruly behaviour by young Englishmen going back many hundreds of years. Londoners used to live in fear of the "mob" back in the 18th century. Back in ancient Rome, there used to be massive riots between supporters of rival chariot teams that used to last for days.

And so on....

But the fact is that English football hooliganism became a particular problem in the years after 1966 (now, is that purely co-incidental ? hmmm...) to the point in the mid-1980's when it was seriously suggested that the game should be shut down.

I lived through that era, and I'm interested to discuss how and why it all came about.

Agreed mate, I think my first witness of it at Goldstone was around 1967/8 but may be a couple of years out. I also recall, being my age, that prior to the football violence of then, it used to be town against town youth clubs. I recall Crawley lads coming to Haywards heath on a Friday evening. I recall sharing this recently with a fellow haywards heath man who remembered it well

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Tim Carder wrote a superb series for the Collectors & Historians Society called (I think) 'A History of Crowd Disorder' which covers many of the 'offs' mentioned above.

If I can dig it out later (and Tim gives me permission to reproduce it), I'll get it on here.

That would be excellent.

Worst I remember was Spurs when we won 3-1.

Millwall just after the Panorama programme ( I seem to remember a HORSE in the North Stand?!) and Chelsea in Div 2

 

[aviaviavioioioi]

The bigger blight on football in my opinion is today - the "Champions League" and keeping the G14 clubs in the money pot at the expense of the have-nots, billionaire owners, Sky/Murdoch, extortionate ticketing schemes, dickhead overpaid footballers, sanitised all-seater stadiums, the list goes on and on.

Hooligans were a small part of the game culture, and the game itself was definitely in better health back when a few lads belting each other was seen as the nadir of the history of the beautiful game. My opinion of course, but you can generally stick your post-'Soccer AM' '3-D Super Sunday' football and the majority of your nouveau (rich) fans up your all-seated jacksies

I like this

 

[highway61]

I like this

Bloody true

 

[jevs]

The west ham game in 1978 has a chapter in one of Cass Pennant's books. He said that WH (ICF) came down on the friday night and they all ended up sleeping on the beech and setting light to a boat to keep warm. he said that Brighton was a horrible place to come because of the little back streets and alleys everywhere. WHU won the game 2-1 with both WH goals from Pop Robson.

The other game was in 1982 when i remember seeing it kick off in the north stand right at the end...apparently the ICF had come in mob handed. I remember seeing (i was up on the east terrace) loads of dark blue police riot helmets and them whacking anyone who got in their way. BHA won the game 3-1,

 

[daveinprague]

The match when west ham set fire to the boats was the day before I went to work in Saudi Arabia...my missus was really pissed with me and tried to strangle me... I felt safer down on the beach with the hammers fans..haha

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

It was all down to the skinheads

Hard bastards!