[News] Air India flight AI171 Ahmedabad -> London Gatwick crashed

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I know!



Ok, I have no idea what sound they'd make.




He says he thinks it's engine failure, and gives some reasons. One of the reasons is that the RAT deploys. But he also says there are other things that could cause RAT deployment, so he needed more reasons as evidence that it was engine failure, not something else. If he noticed that the audio from the jet engines was far lower than it should have been, I'm surprised he didn't say so, that's all.

Having done plenty of RAT tests where you spin it up using the aircraft system I can assure you I know the sound! Whilst people often go to pilots for crash incidents, their knowledge is flying not the engineering of aircraft. They will know if I press this button it will do this (they hope) they don't know how it works, that's of no interest to them in doing their job. Their whole job is about procedures and dealing with things when they go wrong. Pilots training has very little technical knowledge more so schematic drawings of the systems.

Most crashes are caused by human error whether pilot, engineer, loader, air traffic.

 

[Triggaaar]

Having done plenty of RAT tests where you spin it up using the aircraft system I can assure you I know the sound!

Did I, or anyone else, say that we can't hear the sound of the RAT?

 

[Deadly Danson]

He did. He said the sound was the prop not engine sounds. He put it at the top of his theory, double engine failure. Even mentioned fuel contamination which I have alluded to.

Years ago the procedure was that each engine was fed from separate fuel tanks on takeoff. This was so they remained independent. When Extended Range Twin Engine Aircraft (ETOPS then changed to EROPS) each aircraft type and airlines had to prove their reliability. This extended to procedural things such as I've mentioned above. As long range twin engine aircraft are now the norm this will be down to the amount of data proving their safety. Any aircraft should be able to takeoff at max weight on 50% of available power B787 one engine, A380 on 2.

At the beginning of licensing twin engine aircraft they had to prove their safety of flying on one engine over a period of distance i.e. from the middle of the Atlantic to an airport. There used to be an area in the middle that was somewhat dodgy many felt. Thankfully things have improved.

The old B747 especially powered by the Pratt and Whitney engine were considered under powered and I happen to have witnessed this incident as I was outside Hangar 6 at the time. The no. 4 engine surged causing a fire and the exhaust cone dumped on the runway. It nearly crashed at Russ Hill narrowly missing a house. The tower thought it had crashed. It didn't and somehow managed an emergency landing.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f68ae5274a1317000623/4-1989_N605PE.pdf

I may be completely misremembering this or it was a different incident but I have a vague recollection of seeing this plane go over my school in Hove fairly low and finding out that it had dumped fuel when I got back in the afternoon. I wonder if that's a false memory but either way that's an interesting read.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Did I, or anyone else, say that we can't hear the sound of the RAT?

Only giving my opinion and backing it up with my experience which is somewhat dated having left the industry some years ago but I was a licensed aircraft engineer working on a variety of large jet aircraft.

For a period of time I was on the BA crash recovery team, happy to say we only had a few incidents.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I may be completely misremembering this or it was a different incident but I have a vague recollection of seeing this plane go over my school in Hove fairly low and finding out that it had dumped fuel when I got back in the afternoon. I wonder if that's a false memory but either way that's an interesting read.

It happened from time to time but this was one certainly sticks in the mind. if a plane has to return to the airport they do normally try to go over the sea to dump fuel as no one wants jet fuel on their washing.

I do think you may be right with this one though as it didn't get that high.

 

[Robinjakarta]

This is the place if you want read the opinions of people who are actually qualified pass an opinion.

PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network

The Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe) is an aviation website dedicated to airline pilots and those who are considering a career as a commercial pilot.

www.pprune.org

For anyone interested in aviation whether through an accident, incident or just generally, that's a very interesting website. I learned what Cilla Black was like to fly with among other things from there.

 

[Deadly Danson]

It happened from time to time but this was one certainly sticks in the mind. if a plane has to return to the airport they do normally try to go over the sea to dump fuel as no one wants jet fuel on their washing.

I do think you may be right with this one though as it didn't get that high.

I think it was. I remember even then thinking how out of the ordinary it was for a 747 to be flying so low. It's amazing how many flights do return and dump fuel and also just how many go-arounds there are - see them all the time at Gatwick. Also remember the Virgin 747 with gear issues circling for a few hours over Brighton over my home and taking a few grainy snaps in 2014 before an emergency landing.
Edit: discussed here: https://www.northstandchat.com/threads/flightradar.315415/

 

[Peacehaven Wild Kids]

I think it was. I remember even then thinking how out of the ordinary it was for a 747 to be flying so low. It's amazing how many flights do return and dump fuel and also just how many go-arounds there are - see them all the time at Gatwick. Also remember the Virgin 747 with gear issues circling for a few hours over Brighton over my home and taking a few grainy snaps in 2014 before an emergency landing.View attachment 204475View attachment 204476

Was basically circling over my house, I think one of the news channels had picked up on it, I then watched it straighten up and head (I assumed) towards Gatwick. I remember they didn’t show the landing live but a recording seconds after it was safe.
Not only did I have “something in my eye” as it landed, I also have now recalling it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Was basically circling over my house, I think one of the news channels had picked up on it, I then watched it straighten up and head (I assumed) towards Gatwick. I remember they didn’t show the landing live but a recording seconds after it was safe.
Not only did I have “something in my eye” as it landed, I also have now recalling it.

View attachment 204480View attachment 204481

Mine too. It was a huge relief when it landed at Gatwick.

 

[Chicken Run]

Here’s the infamous VA A340 landing at Heathrow with only one of the rear undercarriages deployed, all pax and crew evacuated safely, incredible flying from the pilot’s

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Was basically circling over my house, I think one of the news channels had picked up on it, I then watched it straighten up and head (I assumed) towards Gatwick. I remember they didn’t show the landing live but a recording seconds after it was safe.
Not only did I have “something in my eye” as it landed, I also have now recalling it.

View attachment 204480View attachment 204481

It used to be frequent for an emergency landing to be called one or two a week. 99.9% were something simple but it would draw attention when the fire brigade positioned themselves alongside the runway. Often it would be a system gone down but with loads of back up systems it was a full on incident.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

As someone who is mid process of obtaining their pilots licence, I would say this looks like one of two things. 1) Pilot/ground crew error, incorrectly calibrated aircraft, flaps don't looks to be correctly set for take off etc 2) and this is the one I think is more likely, based on the video and what some have said in industry, is that it's a total complete loss of power. If the RAT was deployed, then this is going to be a huge issue for Boeing. Yet again. I feel desperately sorry for the families.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think it was. I remember even then thinking how out of the ordinary it was for a 747 to be flying so low. It's amazing how many flights do return and dump fuel and also just how many go-arounds there are - see them all the time at Gatwick. Also remember the Virgin 747 with gear issues circling for a few hours over Brighton over my home and taking a few grainy snaps in 2014 before an emergency landing.
Edit: discussed here: https://www.northstandchat.com/threads/flightradar.315415/
View attachment 204475View attachment 204476

It’s easier for the layman to follow these events now we have FR24 and the rest.

I can’t remember exactly when it was but fairly recently I heard what was like a plane repeatedly flying over our house, which seemed odd. I fired up FR24 and it was a TUI flight to Tenerife that had turned back, descended to 10000 feet and dumped fuel over the channel.

Anyone with even a passing interest in aviation would know that was sudden cabin depressurisation. Sure enough it circled around the channel dumping fuel, circled most of Sussex and then returned to base safely.

I was fairly relieved when FR showed it landed safely and yet there wasn’t a single mention of it in the media despite the delay or cancellation of over 200 package holidays.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

I can remember, back in 1968, walking home from school in Staines, and hearing someone shout look! looking up and seeing a BOAC Boeing 707 flying very low with one wing totally ablaze.

It turned out it had suffered an engine fire shortly after take off, and was vainly trying to return to nearby Heathrow, for an emergency landing. The landing was successful, and nearly all passengers and crew safely escaped.

A brave young stewardess lost her life, when after helping dozens of passengers from the burning aircraft, she then decided to go back and assist the last five passengers, one of whom was wheelchair bound, before dying with them from asphyxia.

Barbara Jane Harrison was posthumously awarded the George Cross for her heroism. The only George Cross to be awarded to a woman in peacetime.

R.I.P. a very brave lady indeed.

 

[peterward]

As someone who is mid process of obtaining their pilots licence, I would say this looks like one of two things. 1) Pilot/ground crew error, incorrectly calibrated aircraft, flaps don't looks to be correctly set for take off etc 2) and this is the one I think is more likely, based on the video and what some have said in industry, is that it's a total complete loss of power. If the RAT was deployed, then this is going to be a huge issue for Boeing. Yet again. I feel desperately sorry for the families.

What type.of licence? PPL or frozen ATPL?

Flaps wouldn't have been up during takeoff off run, the aural take off configuration warning horn wouldn't stop if you tried. Inadvertently moving them to up instead of gear up is a possibility

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

What type.of licence? PPL or frozen ATPL?

Flaps wouldn't have been up during takeoff off run, the aural take off configuration warning horn wouldn't stop if you tried. Inadvertently moving them to up instead of gear up is a possibility

PPL.

What if the alarm didn't go off? Yes, I thought that too, but if it's got enough lift and power, then it can still take off OK with the gear down. The fact they just lifted off above the threshold says a lot too. You can see the dust being kicked up.

 

[Notters]

There's 2 blackboxes, cockpit voice recorder which won't be as much use and the flight data recorder which is the important one, and hopefully they have.

Question for you. Surely it'd be very easy for planes to transmit all of the flight info continuously now (I believe the engines do this?) so why do we still need black boxes? I mean, I guess you could still have them as a backup, but surely all this info should be available immediately?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Question for you. Surely it'd be very easy for planes to transmit all of the flight info continuously now (I believe the engines do this?) so why do we still need black boxes? I mean, I guess you could still have them as a backup, but surely all this info should be available immediately?

I was thinking the same

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

What type.of licence? PPL or frozen ATPL?

Flaps wouldn't have been up during takeoff off run, the aural take off configuration warning horn wouldn't stop if you tried. Inadvertently moving them to up instead of gear up is a possibility

Is there still a CPL too?

When I worked af the CAA back at the turn of the century I was test manager for a new European air crew licensing system.

I created a PPL licence in my own name with a Concorde type rating !!!

 

[peterward]

Question for you. Surely it'd be very easy for planes to transmit all of the flight info continuously now (I believe the engines do this?) so why do we still need black boxes? I mean, I guess you could still have them as a backup, but surely all this info should be available immediately?

Technology still hasn't quite moved that far yet. SAT coms are on board most aircraft now, but they don't transmit aircraft Telemetry. That is sent via, what is effectively a mobile sim card after landing.

In theory all Telemetry could probably be done in real time by sat comms, they are expensive to use, so while I don't know the reason why they don't, I'd guess the prohibitive costs of sat comms makes it not worth doing for all flights when only the odd one crashes?