[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[raymondo]

FM: Russian fighter jet violated Estonia's airspace to protect shadow fleet vessel

Minister of Foreign Affairs Margus Tsahkna (Eesti 200) said a Russian fighter jet's incursion into Estonian airspace on Tuesday (May 13) was to protect a shadow fleet vessel escorted out of Estonia's exclusive economic zone by the Navy.

news.err.ee

Thanks . But Rubio probably won't show any concern about this.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The only surprise about today - and, to be frank, it's not that big a surprise - is the degree of contempt Russia is showing Zelenskyy.

This isn't even a second rate delegation that Putin has sent, it is third rate because it consists of his Deputy Ministers, not the Ministers themselves. Russian has compounded this by calling Zelenskyy a "a clown and a loser" and "pathetic" in response to him calling the Russian delegation "stand-in", "theatrical props" and "dummies".

Diplomatically, Zelenskyy has said he will meet only Putin, but Putin has said Zelenskyy is not his equal, implying that will never happen. So does Zelenskyy stay true to his word and not meet with the third rate delegation, does he attend but deliver a message to them before leaving, or does he let his delegation talk with them? If he does the latter then, to an extent, he'll be justifying Putin's decision not to attend and so let him off the hook.

Trump has already said today "Why would Putin attend if I'm not there?" This shows he has still got Putin's back, although such a statement seems at odds with earlier statements about the importance Trump places on ending the war.

Trump has chosen not to attend, in spite of his initial promise to end the war on his first day of office. His commitment to the peace process is now proven to be questionable at best.

As for Putin's commitment - let's remember, today is on the back of Putin declining the 30-day ceasefire proposed by the Coalition Of The Willing.

Ukraine and the Coalition Of The Willing must conclude that neither Putin nor Trump are serious or committed to peace.

On a more sinister level, you have to wonder whether Putin's unwillingness to travel is because he is afraid for his life, and Trump's unwillingness and mixed messaging specifically on Putin is because Putin does have stuff on Trump.

Something has to give here because Trump's messages are mixed, Putin appears to be calling all the shots, while Putin is in a weak position economically and militarily.

 

[raymondo]

The only surprise about today - and, to be frank, it's not that big a surprise - is the degree of contempt Russia is showing Zelenskyy.

This isn't even a second rate delegation that Putin has sent, it is third rate because it consists of his Deputy Ministers, not the Ministers themselves. Russian has compounded this by calling Zelenskyy a "a clown and a loser" and "pathetic" in response to him calling the Russian delegation "stand-in", "theatrical props" and "dummies".

Diplomatically, Zelenskyy has said he will meet only Putin, but Putin has said Zelenskyy is not his equal, implying that will never happen. So does Zelenskyy stay true to his word and not meet with the third rate delegation, does he attend but deliver a message to them before leaving, or does he let his delegation talk with them? If he does the latter then, to an extent, he'll be justifying Putin's decision not to attend and so let him off the hook.

Trump has already said today "Why would Putin attend if I'm not there?" This shows he has still got Putin's back, although such a statement seems at odds with earlier statements about the importance Trump places on ending the war.

Trump has chosen not to attend, in spite of his initial promise to end the war on his first day of office. His commitment to the peace process is now proven to be questionable at best.

As for Putin's commitment - let's remember, today is on the back of Putin declining the 30-day ceasefire proposed by the Coalition Of The Willing.

Ukraine and the Coalition Of The Willing must conclude that neither Putin nor Trump are serious or committed to peace.

On a more sinister level, you have to wonder whether Putin's unwillingness to travel is because he is afraid for his life, and Trump's unwillingness and mixed messaging specifically on Putin is because Putin does have stuff on Trump.

Something has to give here because Trump's messages are mixed, Putin appears to be calling all the shots, while Putin is in a weak position economically and militarily.

What's true though is that Zelenskiy is indeed not Putin's equal...he is far far superior to Putin as a leader, statesman and a person.

 

[SouthSaxon]

The only surprise about today - and, to be frank, it's not that big a surprise - is the degree of contempt Russia is showing Zelenskyy.

This isn't even a second rate delegation that Putin has sent, it is third rate because it consists of his Deputy Ministers, not the Ministers themselves. Russian has compounded this by calling Zelenskyy a "a clown and a loser" and "pathetic" in response to him calling the Russian delegation "stand-in", "theatrical props" and "dummies".

Diplomatically, Zelenskyy has said he will meet only Putin, but Putin has said Zelenskyy is not his equal, implying that will never happen. So does Zelenskyy stay true to his word and not meet with the third rate delegation, does he attend but deliver a message to them before leaving, or does he let his delegation talk with them? If he does the latter then, to an extent, he'll be justifying Putin's decision not to attend and so let him off the hook.

Trump has already said today "Why would Putin attend if I'm not there?" This shows he has still got Putin's back, although such a statement seems at odds with earlier statements about the importance Trump places on ending the war.

Trump has chosen not to attend, in spite of his initial promise to end the war on his first day of office. His commitment to the peace process is now proven to be questionable at best.

As for Putin's commitment - let's remember, today is on the back of Putin declining the 30-day ceasefire proposed by the Coalition Of The Willing.

Ukraine and the Coalition Of The Willing must conclude that neither Putin nor Trump are serious or committed to peace.

On a more sinister level, you have to wonder whether Putin's unwillingness to travel is because he is afraid for his life, and Trump's unwillingness and mixed messaging specifically on Putin is because Putin does have stuff on Trump.

Something has to give here because Trump's messages are mixed, Putin appears to be calling all the shots, while Putin is in a weak position economically and militarily.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don’t at all buy into the idea that Putin has something on Trump.

What could possibly embarrass or coerce him at this point? Aside, that is, from the lengthy list of things we all have on Trump because he’s done his crimes openly under the full glare of the media, not to mention making a tit of himself on a daily basis.

The man does not care, he is immune to any sense of guilt or shame.

 

[bhafc99]

Trump probably just wants multiple Trump Towers and Trump Golf Courses across Russia. Lining his own pockets is really the only thing he cares about.

And if Russia do have kompromat on him - the long-rumoured prostitute pi**ing or whatever - then, as you say, I doubt the Wotsit-hued Wanker really cares.

He knows he can do, say and act in any way whatsoever, and the MAGA muppets will just say it’s fake news etc, what about Hunter Biden’s laptop and Hilary eating children etc etc.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I agree with most of what you said, but I don’t at all buy into the idea that Putin has something on Trump.

What could possibly embarrass or coerce him at this point? Aside, that is, from the lengthy list of things we all have on Trump because he’s done his crimes openly under the full glare of the media, not to mention making a tit of himself on a daily basis.

The man does not care, he is immune to any sense of guilt or shame.

Trump's statements, his behaviour and his disposition towards Putin make no sense, from an economic, political or military perspective. Trump is paying a price with the US Electorate who have no love for Russia and with his NATO allies who cannot rely on him for support.

His statements on the war are erratic, from "I'll solve it on Day One" to "I'm prepared to walk away". Yet not at any point has he backed Ukraine, or even been critical of Putin personally. This is exactly what someone would do if they were a spy, or had agreed to do Russia's bidding for payment, or if Russia had hard evidence that Trump had had sex with a minor.

This is speculation, but speculation only arises because his stance, logic and reasoning is nonsensical and incoherent.

 

[hampshirebrightonboy]

Trump's statements, his behaviour and his disposition towards Putin make no sense, from an economic, political or military perspective. Trump is paying a price with the US Electorate who have no love for Russia and with his NATO allies who cannot rely on him for support.

His statements on the war are erratic, from "I'll solve it on Day One" to "I'm prepared to walk away". Yet not at any point has he backed Ukraine, or even been critical of Putin personally. This is exactly what someone would do if they were a spy, or had agreed to do Russia's bidding for payment, or if Russia had hard evidence that Trump had had sex with a minor.

This is speculation, but speculation only arises because his stance, logic and reasoning is nonsensical and incoherent.

"his stance, logic and reasoning is nonsensical and incoherent" - this applies to pretty much everything he is involved in though not just the Russia Ukraine conflict. It's just the way he is.

 

[raymondo]

Journo's question gave a typical Trump response.
Anyway Mr President, you've had 113 days or whatever to meet with your hero...so why haven't you? (That's my question, not the journey's).

 

[Bodian]

So, you have to ask - why on earth did Trump not simply go? If he knows that his presence would have meant that Putin would have gone - then why did he himself choose not to go? He's basically saying 'because I didn't go, Putin didn't go' - and therefore it is Trump himself that could be said to be deliberately sabotaging the talks.

 

[SouthSaxon]

View attachment 201936

So, you have to ask - why on earth did Trump not simply go? If he knows that his presence would have meant that Putin would have gone - then why did he himself choose not to go? He's basically saying 'because I didn't go, Putin didn't go' - and therefore it is Trump himself that could be said to be deliberately sabotaging the talks.

Simple. Trump doesn’t want peace.

 

[SouthSaxon]

Trump's statements, his behaviour and his disposition towards Putin make no sense, from an economic, political or military perspective. Trump is paying a price with the US Electorate who have no love for Russia and with his NATO allies who cannot rely on him for support.

His statements on the war are erratic, from "I'll solve it on Day One" to "I'm prepared to walk away". Yet not at any point has he backed Ukraine, or even been critical of Putin personally. This is exactly what someone would do if they were a spy, or had agreed to do Russia's bidding for payment, or if Russia had hard evidence that Trump had had sex with a minor.

This is speculation, but speculation only arises because his stance, logic and reasoning is nonsensical and incoherent.

As others have said, it’s how he is in everything. It’s how he is with his own family.

Those behaviours make sense when you consider them from the perspective of a narcissist. Others more qualified than me have suggested he has full-blown narcissistic personality disorder [link].

This means the only perspective is Trump’s own personal gratification, which will be literally the only thing he cares about. He needs fuel for that narcissism, which can come from positive or negative attention. Causing chaos allows him to exert power and control over people and that makes him feel good.

The power dynamics of narcissism also allow us rule out kompromat. It is super unlikely that a narcissist would be able to accept an ongoing loss of control at that level with retaliating hard. If Putin was trying blackmail Trump, Moscow would be rubble by now.

 

[Bodian]

Those behaviours make sense when you consider them from the perspective of a narcissist. Others more qualified than me have suggested he has full-blown narcissistic personality disorder [link].

This means the only perspective is Trump’s own personal gratification, which will be literally the only thing he cares about. He needs fuel for that narcissism, which can come from positive or negative attention. Causing chaos allows him to exert power and control over people and that makes him feel good.

Yes - which makes it odder that he didn't announce 'Right, I'm going to Turkey - and because I am going Putin will be going - see, look how much influence and power I have'. I can only presume that Putin said he wasn't going regardless of whether Trump was.

 

[fly high]

Yes - which makes it odder that he didn't announce 'Right, I'm going to Turkey - and because I am going Putin will be going - see, look how much influence and power I have'. I can only presume that Putin said he wasn't going regardless of whether Trump was.

I think Trump was just saying I am the most important, no one else is relevant so way would Putin want to go.

 

[SouthSaxon]

I think Trump was just saying I am the most important, no one else is relevant so way would Putin want to go.

Yeah, it was a way to make it about him.

 

[Binney on acid]

Meanwhile, Mr Genocide and The Orange One continue to struggle to differentiate between the words 'negotiate' and 'capitulate'.........

 

[Bodian]

So, even his own team think that the only way of progressing is for Trump and Putin to meet.

In which case Trump needs to stop fannying around. He could have agreed to go to Turkey and meet Putin.

 

[raymondo]

View attachment 201936

So, you have to ask - why on earth did Trump not simply go? If he knows that his presence would have meant that Putin would have gone - then why did he himself choose not to go? He's basically saying 'because I didn't go, Putin didn't go' - and therefore it is Trump himself that could be said to be deliberately sabotaging the talks.

Yep, or he's manipulatively saying "look at me, I'm so important" after the event.

 

[raymondo]

The Pope, in his first Sunday address, puts more specific pressure on Putin than Trump has since elected :
- release the prisoners
- release the stolen children

Now Vance, a supposedly devout Catholic, must choose between repeating the Pope's words or Putin's.

 

[Eric the meek]

The Pope, in his first Sunday address, puts more specific pressure on Putin than Trump has since elected :
- release the prisoners
- release the stolen children

Now Vance, a supposedly devout Catholic, must choose between repeating the Pope's words or Putin's.

Or staying silent?

 

[GT49er]

Or staying silent?

Difficult to do for a serial gobshite.