[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Nobby]

I do understand and she would only have been 6 or 7 at the time the blitz started. What she experienced would have been horrific but that doesn't mean she would have known whether the bombing of Brighton was a deliberate target or if it were planes returning from a different target. Or, as in the case of worst raid I mentioned, a single plane getting lost and then targeting Brighton. .

To her it might have felt that the Germans were deliberately targeting the school at lunch time and that does not diminish what she went through.

And you're right, I wasn't there, and I'm guessing neither were you.

No but my Father was.
Twat

 

[TomandJerry]

Absolute pain and suffering for any farther and child

 

[raymondo]

Quite a turnaround that we are giving this the thumbs up. Zelensky seems to have pulled it off - getting a decent deal and keeping Trump onside.

That tete-a-tete with Zelensky in the Vatican might have helped. There'll be orange smoke coming from the chimney before you know it.

Just seen your orange smoke quip...yes he fancied himself as the new Pope. Trump would probably use the Vatican for money laundering and more executive orders.

 

[Eric the meek]

So you’re calling my Father a liar? Feck off you imbecile

He probably isn't Nobby. He is probably looking for a reaction. We get this from time to time on here. It is unfortunate, but seems to go with the territory. It is even more unfortunate to have happened on VE Day as well. Talk about not reading the room....

Looking ahead, tomorrow may be an interesting day on this thread, with the Moscow Victory Day parade (it is Russia's 'VE' Day as it was signed at 43 minutes past midnight).

It's really unpredictable.

 

[Eric the meek]

There are lots of things I don't see coming. This is one of them.

(This is after all the 'Chaina is enemy No. 1' and the tariff fiasco)

 

[Flounce]

There's some right thick sicko's in the comments section, unfortunately.

How true are the Nazi collaboration accusations? They seem to come up a lot. I confess to being totally ignorant of Ukraine history pre Putin’s invasion. Worse than Vichy France?

 

[SouthSaxon]

How true are the Nazi collaboration accusations? They seem to come up a lot. I confess to being totally ignorant of Ukraine history pre Putin’s invasion. Worse than Vichy France?

Immediately behind the regular Wehrmacht divisions were SS detachments, who set about the Ukrainian population in no uncertain terms. I dare say some civilians did what they had to do to survive.

Ukraine was occupied territory, whereas Vichy France was a client state where the collaboration was therefore baked in.

There’s a huge difference between individual actions under extreme duress and a government action.

So, no, it’s bollocks. Putin propagates this nonsense to maintain the myth he’s built up that he’s fighting a justified war against fascists, who are supported by their European sympathisers.

This fits with the WW2 narrative he’s also nurtured. Decent explanation of this here.

 

[Eric the meek]

Perhaps. But my relatives lived nearby, and although I'm sure that there is much I was never told, I would have thought the deliberate and repeated strafing of schoolchildren in the playground would have been one of those things that did register. I obviously can't say it didn't happen - I'm just a bit sceptical that it happened frequently and intentionally.
A train approaching or leaving the tunnel would be a more obvious - and certainly more legitimate - target, and close enough to frighten the living daylights out of a 6 or 7 year old girl.

Do you see what has happened?

You've just accepted that she was a 6 or 7 year old girl. Because he told you she was! But that information was not actually divulged. I didn't say when the raid was, because I don't know.

Be careful. Be really careful that you don't read something, accept it as true, and repeat it as though it is true.

 

[raymondo]

There are lots of things I don't see coming. This is one of them.

(This is after all the 'Chaina is enemy No. 1' and the tariff fiasco)

Hmmm, I didn't expect that either.
China supports the invaders with weapons and trade - I don't like it.
Erdogan says he believes in a whole Ukraine, previous borders - but he also has interests in the Caucusus - he might be tempted to trade 'concessions' with Russia as the US has.

I dunno . And Trump will tell China he'll drop all tarifs if they share the Nobel Peace prize with him.

 

[Scappa]

How true are the Nazi collaboration accusations? They seem to come up a lot. I confess to being totally ignorant of Ukraine history pre Putin’s invasion. Worse than Vichy France?

Immediately behind the regular Wehrmacht divisions were SS detachments, who set about the Ukrainian population in no uncertain terms. I dare say some civilians did what they had to do to survive.

Ukraine was occupied territory, whereas Vichy France was a client state where the collaboration was therefore baked in.

There’s a huge difference between individual actions under extreme duress and a government action.

So, no, it’s bollocks. Putin propagates this nonsense to maintain the myth he’s built up that he’s fighting a justified war against fascists, who are supported by their European sympathisers.

This fits with the WW2 narrative he’s also nurtured. Decent explanation of this here.

A series of articles by Donbas Samizdat called Operation Novorossiya is as-good-a primer on the history of Nazism and the far right in Ukraine and Russia as I have found. There's a huge amount of information to be found within. Link to Part 1 and to the rest of the 6 part series and other articles by the author

"One needs to think, how did we get here? Well if you are team Russia, then it’s first and foremost Nazis, Ukrainian Nazis. Not NATO, not the USA, the first reaction was Azov Nazis. Putin used this narrative to justify his Special Military Operation. But why would a country with the highest numbers of far-right extremists in the world, not to mention the highest amount of hate crimes of any major country, use the fear of Nazis as the main narrative for such an operation? It’s because their GRU Psychological Warfare wing (unit 54777) has been planning it for decades.

The GRU and FSB used a successful media narrative in 2013–14 to justify interventions in Donbas and Luhansk. 2014 Coincided with the newly structured launch of Project Lahkta, known to many by the Internet Research Agency aka GLAVSET, giving birth to another weapon in the information war. They would use the threat of Ukrainian Nationalists and Neo-Nazi “Banderist” death squads to discredit Maidan in 2014. The Kremlin-controlled State media would use weaponized propaganda, offering tranches of “leaked” half-truths to Western media outlets, summarizing a concern about the sudden rise of Ukrainian Neo Nazis, leading to mass hysteria within a Western media already obsessed with Nazi symbolism."

"In the years prior to Maidan and all throughout the Donbas conflict, Moscow would begin to unleash dozens of extremists and Neo-Nazis from their prisons and into Ukrainian society. Inserting violent criminals and radicals onto Ukraine’s streets and into their nationalist movement. All while being able to point the finger at Ukraine, for having the problem that they helped create. These Russian Nationalists, many with ties to FSB, would be found fighting on the other side of the conflict, first joining the Maidan self-defense forces, and ending up as some of the core members of the original Azov Battalion."

Donbas Samizdat – Medium

Read writing from Donbas Samizdat on Medium. Donbas Samizdat is a project from anonymous writers, researchers and analysts from Russia and Ukraine.

medium.com

 

[Eric the meek]

Hmmm, I didn't expect that either.
China supports the invaders with weapons and trade - I don't like it.
Erdogan says he believes in a whole Ukraine, previous borders - but he also has interests in the Caucusus - he might be tempted to trade 'concessions' with Russia as the US has.

I dunno . And Trump will tell China he'll drop all tarifs if they share the Nobel Peace prize with him.

Is this about bringing Turkey in to counterbalance the Chinese influence (which Trump may see as inevitable)?

Oh, I don't know. My mind's on tomorrow. There's lots of wishful thinking going on in my head. Explosions, fire etc.

 

[GT49er]

Do you see what has happened?

You've just accepted that she was a 6 or 7 year old girl. Because he told you she was! But that information was not actually divulged. I didn't say when the raid was, because I don't know.

Be careful. Be really careful that you don't read something, accept it as true, and repeat it as though it is true.

Simple mathematics. A 91 year old lady in 2025 would have been 6 or 7 - or maybe just 8 - when this event happened.

Anyway, this isn't a hill I'm prepared to die on. This thread is far more important than how accurate a child's memories of over 80 years ago are. I too have childhood memories - but how much do I actually remember them, or do I remember hearing about them, or seeing photographs which confirm I was there/did it? I don't know.
Whatever, I'm out of this discussion. Concentrate on the real subject of this thread now. Something called Ukraine, wasn't it?

 

[drew]

Do you see what has happened?

You've just accepted that she was a 6 or 7 year old girl. Because he told you she was! But that information was not actually divulged. I didn't say when the raid was, because I don't know.

Be careful. Be really careful that you don't read something, accept it as true, and repeat it as though it is true.

You said she was 91. Do the math!

 

[drew]

So you’re calling my Father a liar? Feck off you imbecile

Never suggested that.

 

[Silverhatch]

My mum (dead 22 years) was 18 when WW2 kicked off. Brighton born and bred she unapologetically said the war years were dangerously exciting and glamorous (dances, uniforms and live-for-the-day). She was in the auxiliaries and often recalled the moment she dived under a requisitioned fuel tanker she was painting to escape a German fighter strafing their yard. She clearly remembered Brighton being bombed - but as local folklore deemed “not intentionally because Hitler wanted to live in the Pavilion!”

 

[Eric the meek]

You said she was 91. Do the math!

But I didn't say when the raid happened !

(You may wish to revisit your assumptions).

 

[drew]

But I didn't say when the raid happened !

(You may wish to revisit your assumptions).

 

[peterward]

How true are the Nazi collaboration accusations? They seem to come up a lot. I confess to being totally ignorant of Ukraine history pre Putin’s invasion. Worse than Vichy France?

Not very true, its mainly twisted narrative stuff from Russian trolls that hides the fact, it was Russia that was in cahoots with the Nazis from 1939-1941 and whom both attacked Poland which brought us into the war.

Russians will go on about Stepan Bandera, the Ukrainian nationalist freedom fighter (and his followers) being
Nazi collaborators, and even today call pro Ukrainians (Banderites a slur meaning Nazis) but that isn't true.

Bandera had zero affinity for the Germans or their plans and he wasnt a Nazi, they were simply fighting for Ukrainian freedom and sovereignty from Stalin and the USSR.

When the Nazis came towards what is now Ukraine and were about to attack the USSR troops there, Bandera and his underground battalions joined them as a means to an end to attack the Soviets and get them out of Ukrainian land, once the Soviets were driven out, Bandera then declared an independent Ukraine (in Western Ukraine), so the Germans arrested him and locked him up.

To the Russian he's a nazi collaborator, to many Ukrainians he's a hero of their centuries long struggle against Russian imperialism.

 

[Triggaaar]

How true are the Nazi collaboration accusations? They seem to come up a lot. I confess to being totally ignorant of Ukraine history pre Putin’s invasion. Worse than Vichy France?

The Nazi is the one in charge of Russia. HTH.

 

[Eric the meek]

Well if the Moscow Victory parade doesn't kick off, then this might.

MAGA have already called the new pope anti-Trump, anti-MAGA and a Marxist. They don't hang about do they?