[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Seagull58]

You’d think that Putin and chums must be having a good old laugh at the arrogance and amateurism of the Trump administration - but they must also wonder if they’re part of a huge US con trick

Krasnov is simply following instructions.

 

[Eric the meek]

Multiple sources are reporting that a limo from Putin's presidential fleet has exploded and caught fire in central Moscow, near the FSB headquarters.

There are no reports of who, or if anyone, was inside it at the time. Also no indication of who was responsible.

 

[peterward]

 

[SouthSaxon]

Well, if even Andrew Neil is catching on…

It’s been described elsewhere as a “colonial” deal, which feels about right to me.

It apparently has a clause that only the US can end the arrangement, essentially making Ukraine a vassal state.

It smacks of a deal that’s been designed to be rejected so that Trump can walk away. Which Ukraine definitely should, they’d be mad to sign it.

 

[Eric the meek]

More on the limousine explosion in Moscow:
(there are several things in this I didn't know).

 

[fly high]

More on the limousine explosion in Moscow:
(there are several things in this I didn't know).

If he can't trust his guards and has them searched then basically he can't trust anyone, even the ones doing the searches.

 

[cunning fergus]

And I understand if you think it's sub-optimal, I think that's a perfectly fair position. Just not in regards to us supporting Ukraine. I assume we we're transitioning to electric arc steelmaking, which I think is a better way to make steel, but for now we can import what we need.




I agree that we are less independent, but we don't need to be independent in order to export to Ukraine. Even in WW2 our defence strategy relied on supplies from the US.




No it doesn't. If we could produce traditional steel as cheaply as we can buy it, then we'd still be producing it.




As I've said, you're mistaken on finances (on the idea that importing costs us more). We do have a limited industrial base which I think is poor from successive governments, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to support Ukraine, and indeed supporting Ukraine would lead to us producing more, which I'm sure you'll think is good.





It does.



I agree that European conquest by Russia isn't going to happen. The only reason it won't happen is because Russia aren't capable of doing it, otherwise you can be sure that Europe would be a Russian empire. Our politicians have noted is that we need to spend more of our budget on defence. If European money (EU and ours) is spent on military equipment from the UK, that's no bad thing for us.

Without getting bogged down on just steel, plans to replace the current steel producing capability are far from secure.

https://search.app/vXCb2bnNiMDijAwe7

Notwithstanding this precarious position for the future of steel production the U.K. Government are clearly not joining up industrial capacity with our rearmament plans, otherwise they would renationalise British Steel. To allow a national strategic asset to fold (before the electric arcs are installed) makes no sense on any level if we are serious about rearming.

Rearming on the scale we are being told is required, not just here but in Europe, is going to increase industrial capacity in the counties that can sustain it, including steel production. That means without our own industrial strategy we will be entirely at the whim of markets and other nations priorities. That will mean increased cost.

Further, increasing industrial capacity to support ourselves and Ukraine, (or anyone else) can’t happen on any scale until our energy prices are lowered, which is the primary cause for deindustrialising in this country.

https://search.app/cCZAtTUiNhHJajGq8

The simple answer to this problem is “drill baby drill” and re-establish the U.K. as an energy producer and not a recipient (to the whim of markets and other nations priorities). The energy position is simply more proof that this Government, like their predecessors are not seriously joined up on industry and defence.

Pointing this out is not a pro Kremlin stance, the easiest thing on this thread is to be in the Ukraine cheerleading line, I am simply not convinced this Government has the clarity of vision to a) help ourselves or b) Ukraine. If we don’t make these changes we need to step back from the top table……….whatever way we go politicians need to be honest about the options.

 

[cunning fergus]

Can you name a country that is wholly independent in its defence?
I don’t know why you keep banging the same drum apart from having nothing else to contribute.

I will start the bidding with China, and raise you a…………can you name a major military power that doesn’t produce its own steel?

 

[Eric the meek]

If he can't trust his guards and has them searched then basically he can't trust anyone, even the ones doing the searches.

It paints a very different picture from the calm, confident, statesman he would have the world believe.

 

[Sirnormangall]

Well, if even Andrew Neil is catching on…

It’s been described elsewhere as a “colonial” deal, which feels about right to me.

It apparently has a clause that only the US can end the arrangement, essentially making Ukraine a vassal state.

It smacks of a deal that’s been designed to be rejected so that Trump can walk away. Which Ukraine definitely should, they’d be mad to sign it.

As Andrew Neil says, Zelensky could probably get a better deal from Putin!

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Deleted

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Without getting bogged down on just steel, plans to replace the current steel producing capability are far from secure.

https://search.app/vXCb2bnNiMDijAwe7

Notwithstanding this precarious position for the future of steel production the U.K. Government are clearly not joining up industrial capacity with our rearmament plans, otherwise they would renationalise British Steel. To allow a national strategic asset to fold (before the electric arcs are installed) makes no sense on any level if we are serious about rearming.

Rearming on the scale we are being told is required, not just here but in Europe, is going to increase industrial capacity in the counties that can sustain it, including steel production. That means without our own industrial strategy we will be entirely at the whim of markets and other nations priorities. That will mean increased cost.

Further, increasing industrial capacity to support ourselves and Ukraine, (or anyone else) can’t happen on any scale until our energy prices are lowered, which is the primary cause for deindustrialising in this country.

https://search.app/cCZAtTUiNhHJajGq8

The simple answer to this problem is “drill baby drill” and re-establish the U.K. as an energy producer and not a recipient (to the whim of markets and other nations priorities). The energy position is simply more proof that this Government, like their predecessors are not seriously joined up on industry and defence.

Pointing this out is not a pro Kremlin stance, the easiest thing on this thread is to be in the Ukraine cheerleading line, I am simply not convinced this Government has the clarity of vision to a) help ourselves or b) Ukraine. If we don’t make these changes we need to step back from the top table……….whatever way we go politicians need to be honest about the options.

In summary we need to invest in infrastructure to make us more self reliant. No shit Sherlock.

One would argue that the drive to arm Ukraine (both independently and with the EU) and the investment that needs, would indicate this government does have the clarity of vision to do it. It’s about the implementation but Rome wasn’t built in a day. FWIW, the nadir of the armed forces funding was the austerity budget of 2012.

On the subject of steel. The issue isn’t the technical ability to make high grade steel, like most other western countries we can make high quality steel it’s just very expensive, it’s the raw material that you need. We don’t have them in any quantities which means we need to import. It’s all about the supply chain …

 

[raymondo]

To take your minds off the football...

Nothing is a surprise any more....the Hegseths holidaying at Putin's Palace soon

 

[raymondo]

Excellent news. Presumably this was in the Baltic? Hope to see more of this sort of action.

It was a nice surprise for me to read that Germany made this move.

 

[raymondo]

You’d think that Putin and chums must be having a good old laugh at the arrogance and amateurism of the Trump administration - but they must also wonder if they’re part of a huge US con trick

I stopped thinking long ago that it's a US con trick

 

[raymondo]

Multiple sources are reporting that a limo from Putin's presidential fleet has exploded and caught fire in central Moscow, near the FSB headquarters.

There are no reports of who, or if anyone, was inside it at the time. Also no indication of who was responsible.

Would be nice... make them all afraid before the big parade

 

[raymondo]

More on the limousine explosion in Moscow:
(there are several things in this I didn't know).

I find it amusing that Putin has his own washing machine, and gets his personal guard to operate it in case of booby traps ...I can't stop chuckling

 

[sully]

Without getting bogged down on just steel, plans to replace the current steel producing capability are far from secure.

https://search.app/vXCb2bnNiMDijAwe7

Notwithstanding this precarious position for the future of steel production the U.K. Government are clearly not joining up industrial capacity with our rearmament plans, otherwise they would renationalise British Steel. To allow a national strategic asset to fold (before the electric arcs are installed) makes no sense on any level if we are serious about rearming.

Rearming on the scale we are being told is required, not just here but in Europe, is going to increase industrial capacity in the counties that can sustain it, including steel production. That means without our own industrial strategy we will be entirely at the whim of markets and other nations priorities. That will mean increased cost.

Further, increasing industrial capacity to support ourselves and Ukraine, (or anyone else) can’t happen on any scale until our energy prices are lowered, which is the primary cause for deindustrialising in this country.

https://search.app/cCZAtTUiNhHJajGq8

The simple answer to this problem is “drill baby drill” and re-establish the U.K. as an energy producer and not a recipient (to the whim of markets and other nations priorities). The energy position is simply more proof that this Government, like their predecessors are not seriously joined up on industry and defence.

Pointing this out is not a pro Kremlin stance, the easiest thing on this thread is to be in the Ukraine cheerleading line, I am simply not convinced this Government has the clarity of vision to a) help ourselves or b) Ukraine. If we don’t make these changes we need to step back from the top table……….whatever way we go politicians need to be honest about the options.

We are investing massively in energy. It will take time, but it’s happening.

 

[Triggaaar]

Without getting bogged down on just steel, plans to replace the current steel producing capability are far from secure.

https://search.app/vXCb2bnNiMDijAwe7

I see from you're link that we are actually still making steel in the UK. Earlier you said we weren't. And we plan to keep making it using EAF.

Rearming on the scale we are being told is required

Maybe you've seen something I haven't - what scale are you being told is required? Is it not largely personnel, or have you seen something to suggest we need a lot more steel?

not just here but in Europe, is going to increase industrial capacity in the counties that can sustain it, including steel production. That means without our own industrial strategy we will be entirely at the whim of markets and other nations priorities. That will mean increased cost.

I've already explained to you how it doesn't mean increased costs. It's often cheaper to import some products than it is to make them. We are currently making steel, we plan to make steel in the future when the current furnaces stop, and we can import it from plenty of countries anyway.

The simple answer to this problem is “drill baby drill” and re-establish the U.K. as an energy producer and not a recipient (to the whim of markets and other nations priorities).

You're repeating this 'whim of markets and other nations priorities'. The priority of other markets is to export goods, so if we're happy to buy steel, they'll sell it. Now if we were only buying steel from China and no other options were available you might have a point, but that's far from the case.

The energy position is simply more proof that this Government, like their predecessors are not seriously joined up on industry and defence.

For that to be true you need to show how we need to significantly increase our industrial production in order increase our military capabilities.

Pointing this out is not a pro Kremlin stance

You don't try and post facts on this thread, you only post things which you perceive could be negative to Ukraine, and much of what you post doesn't add up (like the idea that we can't help Ukraine if we import steel). You even joke that we should try and import weapons from Ukraine, despite the fact that we already send weapons to Ukraine.

I am simply not convinced this Government has the clarity of vision to a) help ourselves or b) Ukraine.

You do understand that we're already helping Ukraine, right?

If we don’t make these changes we need to step back from the top table………

I don't know how, but the UK is ranked 6th by GDP, so I guess we are at the top table, but try not to get distracted by this top table nonsense. We don't have to be top table, we just have to support Ukraine and improve our military capabilities, and we can do that.

whatever way we go politicians need to be honest about the options.

Good luck with that.

 

[Triggaaar]

It smacks of a deal that’s been designed to be rejected so that Trump can walk away. Which Ukraine definitely should, they’d be mad to sign it.

As you say it's designed to be rejected, so it will be.

The EU and allies need to work together so that the US suffers (from their tariff choices) economically to persuade them to change tack.