[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[raymondo]

The Minsk II agreement wasn't going to do any good, so Zelenskyy used it as a delaying tactic, because his country had been attacked, which seems pretty sensible. It didn't get him the presidency. The Budapest Memorandum was already an agreement in place to protect Ukraine. Given that Russia were completely ignoring that, it's naive to think any other agreement would help Ukraine.



It would be good for world peace if Ukraine had joined NATO, so it makes sense for Ukraine to ask to join. I don't understand how you're trying to paint that as a bad thing?




And what's the problem with that? Zelenskyy wasn't in control of if/when Putin would invade, so it made sense to try and join NATO in time to stop it, and talk of an imminent invasion wouldn't help that. Putin was also stating that Russia wouldn't invade and if Zelenskyy had stated the opposite, you'd be on here saying Zelenskyy goaded and dared Putin.




According to Forbes, Zelenskyy is worth $20m at most. Meanwhile Putin, on a salary of $140k, is worth about $200b. That's 10,000 times as much, so I'm not sure what your point is.




We know that it was Zelenskyy who suggested a deal, where the US would get fair recompense for military aid given. Where has someone here shouted 'Not true'? And yes, he went there to sign such a deal. But Trump figured that Ukraine are desperate, so he thought he could get a better deal than 'fair recompense', and wanted double his money plus no security guarantees etc. As part of the negotiation, Trump and Vance attacked Zelenskyy to make him more desperate. Trump admitted this afterwards (so go figure that).




You're being deliberately obtuse here. Ukraine are in a full scale war, and in no position to hold elections. Millions of their people have been displaced and bombs land on citizens across the country every day. There are also enemy soldiers in control of 20% of the country, so of course they can't hold fair and democratic elections. Just as the UK didn't have elections during WW2 (even though we hadn't been invaded). Are you seriously trying to claim otherwise? There were elections in 2019 when there wasn't a full scale war, and people were still in their homes. Zelenskyy didn't call that election, so I'm not sure why you'd want to blame him for that.




Your tip of the iceberg amounts to nothing. Of course Zelenskyy wants peace, he didn't want Russia to invade his country. You have no evidence at all that he doesn't want peace (other than him not surrendering the whole country to Putin, which is not what the people of Ukraine want).




Russia have invaded Ukraine, tortured, raped and executed their citizens on Putin's orders, and intend to take over the whole of Ukraine so that Putin can rebuild a Russian empire, and you're response is 'Well I don't think Zelenskyy is very nice anyway'. People are genuinely shocked at your response and the fact you stick to ridiculous notions when they're proved to be false.

Excellent and thorough

 

[raymondo]

Precisely. If their stance now is not to get involved in others' disputes and not to be the 'World's Policeman' anymore - why did they do anything at all? If Europe had wanted to take some action - we have plenty of missiles between us to have done so.

The US were quite happy and proud to do it - page down to see the emojis from Waltz:

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[The Clamp]

When Zelenskyy ran for President it was basically on 2 main issues, an end to corruption and an end to the war with Russia. He wanted to implement Minsk2 and as part of that agreement hold elections in Donetsk.

He campaigned on bringing peace to Ukraine and won with about 75% of the vote

He went back on Minsk2 as soon as he was in power and told the German newspaper that he never intended to stick to minsk2 and that it was a terrible deal.

America strongly advised he proceed but no he just went about arming his country - publicly demanding NATO commit 1% of its armies to Ukraine, demanding Ukraine be allowed to join NATO. Publicly announcing again and again that there was no chance of a Russian invasion and that all the scaremongering was affecting the economy.


I never really bought the explanation for the off shore bank accounts in British Virgin Isles… we needed them to keep our money safe? But his boss was one of the most corrupt people in the country Kolomosky, he funded the election campaign and owned the company that paid Hunter Biden $50,000 a month.

The off shore accounts all got swept under the carpet really.

After denying the claims that $400 million had gone missing there was the dismissal and forced resignation of 15 deputy ministers but only after allegations of corruption were in the press … and this was over 3 years after he took power so hardly a clean broom when becoming President.

After the Oval Office incident, this thread was wild, Trump was trying to steal Ukraine’s wealth with the mineral deal etc etc

I got shouted down on here when I said that it was Zelenskyy himself who had proposed the mineral deal with US and that he had gone to the White House to sign a pre agreement. Not true they shouted - yet 24hours later Zelenskyy made a statement that he was willing to sign the deal. So go figure.

No free press, political parties banned and no elections because the country is at war. However if you get elected on a ticket that you will bring peace- you must’ve been at war when you got elected so that doesn’t add up to me.

To be honest that is only the tip of the iceberg, whilst I completely agree that Putin and Trump are in the wrong, I do not see Zelenskyy as wanting Peace- in fact he showed that as soon as he got in power.

*Genuinely shocked at all the nasty comments aimed at me simply because I hold a different opinion, would really appreciate it if things weren’t so personal please.

Well. This is clearly copied and pasted and slightly modified. Could you provide the source, please?

 

[SouthSaxon]

Moving on to today’s events. Lavrov quoted on the latest talks:

We will need clear guarantees. And given the sad experience of agreements with just Kyiv, the guarantees can only be the result of an order from Washington to Zelenskyy and his team to do one thing and not the other

I’m sure that order will follow soon enough, as I’m equally sure it’ll favour Russia. Of course, Zelenskyy doesn’t need take orders from Trump.

But, in essence, we now have Russia also seeking guarantees from the US. I wonder who Trump will favour

Source:

Russia willing to strike Black Sea deal in possible move towards peace if US orders Ukraine to respect arrangement – Europe live

Sergei Lavrov says Russia willing to agree deal on safety of shipping in Black Sea but says Moscow will need guarantees

www.theguardian.com

 

[peterward]

Let’s pull at just one of the threads in @Rdodge30’s post, in order to highlight that he is parroting Putin’s talking points.

For anyone interested, there’s a good summary of the Minsk agreements, their background, their flaws and, why Ukraine did not implement them, from Chatham House (definitely not a conspiracy site!).

I’ve linked the Minsk 2 page below, which is one page of a bigger report on Ukraine.

What it shows is that Minsk 2 was indeed a “terrible deal”. Here’s the key line on that:



If it’s possible for Ukraine and Russia to reach different interpretations of the same agreement, it is by definition not an agreement at all. In fact, the text contains no mention of Russia and therefore represents a badly drafted fudge.

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www.chathamhouse.org

@Rdodge30 references Zelenskyy’s 2023 interview with Der Spiegel (link below, I used Chrome to translate). Key quote on Minsk:

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archive.is

This hardly reflects the notion that he never intended to solve the issue.

The idea that Zelenskyy is the one seeking war, or refusing to seek peace, is a Russian viewpoint.

@Rdodge30 - the bottom line is this: Russia invaded Ukraine. Anything else you wish to post that paints Zelenskyy in a bad light is irrelevant to this fundamental point. He did not start the war, he cannot end it without Putin also wanting to.

Thank you for highlighting truth @SouthSaxon.

Propaganda (which is in essence lies and false narratives) is designed to divert people away from the truth. @Rdodge30 is simply believing the propaganda, and unfortunately he's not alone... it is effective.

Russia has been trying to control/subvert Ukraine for centuries, for large parts it has succeeded in controlling and making Ukraine a vassal.

When Ukraine ditched the totaly corrupt and criminal Russian puppet, Yanukovych. Russia did 2 very distinct things and for 2 differing reasons.... they first took Crimea, which was personal as it was for a time a Russian region, but they also later seized the administrative centres in Donetsk and Lughansk with Russian military under the command of Igor Ghirkin (who openly admits it was a Russian military take over) all while pretending it was locals or soldiers on vacation, who found advanced Russian weaponry. They then claimed these locals wanted to break away and form the Donetsk/Lughansk peoples republics. The sham referenda accompanied this Russian military take over of Ukrainan territories. When no such separatist sentiments had ever been shown before in Donbass and where Ukrainians had always categorically rejected Russian rule previously when balloted.

But why? What was the real intent of Donetsk and Lughansk?

Can you answer @Rdodge30 ? Do you know why Russia did it?

The answer is the details of the Minsk agreements, the details of which, Russia were insisting upon long before the Minsk "negotiations" even started. They were pushing and insisting upon the very clauses that would form the Minsk agreements long before anyone formally sat down, all while claiming Russia were just an innocent third party.

Russias demands then, which later formed those Minsk agreements, were that Ukraine had to change its constitution and become a federal Republic, and that the so called "Donetsk and Lughansk peoples republics" (Russia controlled vassal parts of Ukraine under full Russian control) would remain in Ukraine and have full veto power over federal decisions like Ukraine joining EU or NATO.

Yes its well mooted Ukraine made statements initially to play along with it, without any real intention to do so, why again?

Because Yanukovych had hollowed out their military and stolen the money so they were effectively militarily useless, it was to buy time for Poroshenko to reinforce military and militia groups.

But make no mistake, the take over of Donetsk and Lughansk by Russia was always with the intention to have a Moscow controlled puppet state government, a 5th column that could veto Ukraine from ever truly escaping Moscows clutches or ever being free of Moscows imperialism. Trojan horses in a forced federalisation of Ukraine they could still defacto control.

And when that all eventually failed, they went for full invasion and tried to annex the Ukrainian regions

Maybe they don't mention that in the MAGA/Qanon forums?

 

[raymondo]

Jake Broe rips Witkoff apart ( not that the idiot will ever watch it...) and gives him a history lesson on the way.

 

[raymondo]

Meanwhile, on the front line, Ukraine has expanded it's incursion into Belgorod region, taking another four villages (as per Denys Davydov).

 

[Triggaaar]

Jake Broe rips Witkoff apart ( not that the idiot will ever watch it...) and gives him a history lesson on the way.

Assuming there's no ceasefire in place, would it be good for Ukraine to drone attack the Russian victory parade?

 

[Mellotron]

Meanwhile, on the front line, Ukraine has expanded it's incursion into Belgorod region, taking another four villages (as per Denys Davydov).

Perhaps we should start saying that they have the rest of Russia surrounded?

Seems you can just say stuff nowadays, really doesn't matter if it's even vaguely true or not anymore...

 

[The Clamp]

 

[raymondo]

Live now!

 

[raymondo]

Assuming there's no ceasefire in place, would it be good for Ukraine to drone attack the Russian victory parade?

I was thinking they could take out the bridge
Edit: but yeah, the 'victory parade ' or at least some surveillance drones above to trigger their sirens and a rush to the metro

 

[Eric the meek]

I was thinking they could take out the bridge
Edit: but yeah, the 'victory parade ' or at least some surveillance drones above to trigger their sirens and a rush to the metro

I was thinking of multiple drones appearing from all directions, then performing a starling-like murmuration in the sky, before forming into the Ukrainian trident above the Kremlin.

I realise this is being a bit hopeful.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

View attachment 199035

I actually found that really funny.

They have there own group think where they keep on reenforcing their own delusions.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

Moving on to today’s events. Lavrov quoted on the latest talks:



I’m sure that order will follow soon enough, as I’m equally sure it’ll favour Russia. Of course, Zelenskyy doesn’t need take orders from Trump.

But, in essence, we now have Russia also seeking guarantees from the US. I wonder who Trump will favour

Source:

Russia willing to strike Black Sea deal in possible move towards peace if US orders Ukraine to respect arrangement – Europe live

Sergei Lavrov says Russia willing to agree deal on safety of shipping in Black Sea but says Moscow will need guarantees

www.theguardian.com

I'm uncomfortable about any agreement brokered by the US as you just know it'll favor Russia. We must ask ourselves - what does Russia think they'll gain from this and what will Ukraine lose?

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

View attachment 199035

They are f*king shameless. Even they don't believe this, but want ordinary Americans to turn against Zelensky. C***s and traitors, the lot of them!

 

[raymondo]

I was thinking of multiple drones appearing from all directions, then performing a starling-like murmuration in the sky, before forming into the Ukrainian trident above the Kremlin.

I realise this is being a bit hopeful.

And then the Russian cyber unit manage to deactivate all the drones, and they fall on the Kremlin

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

Jake Broe rips Witkoff apart ( not that the idiot will ever watch it...) and gives him a history lesson on the way.

Whilst I really appreciate Jake and other YouTubers who support Ukraine, I think sometimes there's an unhelpful emphasis on the American's stupidity, gullability or incompetence, when really they are ruthless, traitorous and very dangerous. It was no accident that Wankoff was interviewed by well known Putin apologist, Tucker Carlson. This was the perfect platform for his pro Russian propaganda. This US administration is telling us who they are and we must listen.

Notice they are also (via Vance) stoking hatred of and from Europeans. Classic right wing tactics to create division but this time they want to cause conflict between us and the American people. I guess it would make future war easier to sell to the US public.

 

[Eric the meek]

And then the Russian cyber unit manage to deactivate all the drones, and they fall on the Kremlin

And then more drones arrive, to spell out the phrase in Russian 'that was nearly a whole day's Ukrainian drone production. See you all tomorrow...'.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

And I'd like to know wtf this means: