[Other Sport] F1 2025
- Thread starter Audax
- Start date
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Watched the GP yesterday afternoon as we were away on Saturday night / Sunday morning. Always watch with my son and then discuss after.
One line of discussion yesterday was if McLaren would at any point abandon "Papaya Rules" and back one driver. We both think there's no chance of this but it does leave the issue that, all the while they have the better car, Lando and Oscar will potentially be taking points off each other, with no driver establishing a strong lead in the Drivers' Championship. That's fine for now, however, if Ferrari start to 'get it right' more often than not and / or Max wrings a tune out of a Red Bull that looks fairly dreadful and then Red Bull come with some improvements it leaves both McLaren drivers vulnerable.
Of course, car wise, teams will almost certainly be looking more at next season given the massive changes.
- Thread starter
- #103
Will depend a lot on how big McLaren's advantage actually is. I think China masked it to a certain extent. Papaya Rules, though, has always been about the drivers understanding that the team always comes first and that they do not risk taking each other out. Hence why it (briefly) came into play for Melbourne - they didn't want the pair of them battling over the lead while also lapping backmarkers (which can get messy) so they put a brief pause on it.
It cuts both ways I think:
1) Let them fight it out and "take points off each other" (as they have done so far) and run the risk that neither establishes a big enough lead should another team get their car sorted enough to challenge.
2) Impose team orders from the start, back one driver over the other, and run the risk that if the driver they back has a poor run of form or reliability or gets injured that their #2 has missed out on a lot of points and is no longer in a good position to challenge.
For me: McLaren has two genuine WDC-capable drivers. My read on how things stand at the moment is that Norris is the slightly quicker driver, but Piastri will be slightly less mistake-prone. Neither stands head-and-shoulders above the other on any metric, though, and I think we'll see more of these swings where from one weekend to another which one is ahead is going to vary.
The only other team in a similar position to McLaren (driver-wise) is Ferrari with Hamilton (a proven WDC) and Leclerc. Mercedes - Russell is potential WDC, and Antonelli might be - but he's not ready yet. Red Bull ... they have Max and whoever is unlucky enough to have their career ended by being in the other Red Bull.
IMHO it’s far too early, and still too many weekends to go, for McLaren to favour either Norris or Piastri at this stage. Plenty of time to let them race then see what the position is at the end of the summer break
- Sep 3, 2010
- 6,453
Norris's Achilles heel has been the start. For a long time, he has the bad habit of going backwards off the line which is something he - so far at least and a very small data sample - has avoided.
Years ago there was little between Häkkinen and Coulthard before Coulthard let Hakkinen win after the team told him to. From there, the precedent was set. Whilst it was slightly more complex than that, it feels a bit like that at the moment. It won't take much for a hierarchy to form especially if there is a chance McLaren would lose the driver's Championship by hedging their bets. If I had to guess I'd say Piastri will come out of top. We haven't seen it yet but I suspect he will be more ruthless when he needs to be.
Interesting weeks ahead at McLaren. Time will tell.
Years ago there was little between Häkkinen and Coulthard before Coulthard let Hakkinen win after the team told him to. From there, the precedent was set. Whilst it was slightly more complex than that, it feels a bit like that at the moment. It won't take much for a hierarchy to form especially if there is a chance McLaren would lose the driver's Championship by hedging their bets. If I had to guess I'd say Piastri will come out of top. We haven't seen it yet but I suspect he will be more ruthless when he needs to be.
Interesting weeks ahead at McLaren. Time will tell.
AstroSloth
Well-known member
- Dec 29, 2020
- 1,748
I think Piastri has the advantage as well of playing the team game last year, that will have earned him some favour if it comes down to it.
Shropshire Seagull
Well-known member
Zak won't care who comes first in a Maclaren 1-2
It's the constructors WC he really wants (again)
It's the constructors WC he really wants (again)
- Thread starter
- #108
Piastri's new contract announced prior to Melbourne ... there's an element there that suggests that McLaren think he's the one they need to lock down long-term. There was a rumour floating around middle of last season that McLaren are now convinced Piastri has a higher potential than Norris, the recent contract extension suggests they're more keen to keep him than Norris.
Elsewhere ... the noise around Lawson potentially being replaced ahead of Japan is continuing.
And I've also this morning seen that Williams are using the 2024 chassis design in the 2025 car to save budget towards development of the 2026 car. However ... both of them are still using actual 2024 chassis' - with Sainz's being a heavily repaired/rebuilt chassis that was crashed by both Sargeant and Colapinto. Albon's is also a refurbished 2024 chassis, but his took less punishment during 2024. Sainz apparently gets the first fresh 2025-built chassis soon.
- Thread starter
- #109
No official announcement from Red Bull yet, but their silence is deafening as the rumours fly that they've already decided to swap Lawson and Tsunoda for Japan. Reputable journalists are now openly talking about it as if it's a done deal (while still using language that RBR haven't yet confirmed it).
The Colapinto rumour won't go away either - there's an outside possibility that Lawson could be dropped completely. I think that Colapinto piece, if true, will take longer to happen.
My prediction (on assumption the rumours all have some validity):
1) Tsunoda and Lawson swap seats for the upcoming triple-header. Tsunoda at Red Bull for Japan, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia.
2) In the background, Red Bull works on a potential deal for Colapinto.
3) If Lawson comes good and beats Hadjar, the Colapinto deal falls away. If Lawson continues to struggle, the Colapinto deal is activated and he's in the car from Miami onwards.
The Colapinto rumour won't go away either - there's an outside possibility that Lawson could be dropped completely. I think that Colapinto piece, if true, will take longer to happen.
My prediction (on assumption the rumours all have some validity):
1) Tsunoda and Lawson swap seats for the upcoming triple-header. Tsunoda at Red Bull for Japan, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia.
2) In the background, Red Bull works on a potential deal for Colapinto.
3) If Lawson comes good and beats Hadjar, the Colapinto deal falls away. If Lawson continues to struggle, the Colapinto deal is activated and he's in the car from Miami onwards.
- Thread starter
- #110
This has now been denied (via a strategic leak to a respected journo). Supposedly the Albon and Sainz chassis' are identical spec with no differences. The original rumour of Sainz having a recycled chassis emerged from Spanish media, who've got a bit of a reputation when it comes to reporting designed to protect their own. There may be some validity in it, though - it's not unusual for their to be minor differences between chassis' that can affect how the car performs, and it's likely that if they are still using 2024-built chassis' that Albon has continued with his chassis from last year, while Sainz has got the multi-crashed Sargeant/Colapinto one.
It's the Albon chassis that was used for pre-season testing, which Sainz was apparently more comfortable in. But that may also be the product of track differences - Bahrain being more rear-limited, while both Australia and especially China were harder on the front end.
In a team renowned for making dick moves against the #2 drivers, this feels like a really dickish move
- Thread starter
- #112
Yup, it sure does. Where do they go if Yuki struggles as much as Lawson has? How long does Yuki get? It's too soon for Hadjar (but he's impressed me so far! Making a mockery of my pre-season prediction...). They burnt their bridge with Ricciardo. Going back to Perez would be a PR disaster. Colapinto? Big risk there, if they can even get him at an affordable price.
Still nothing official from Red Bull, but even the BBC are now reporting the driver swap as fact citing sources from within the team. They've clearly not learned anything from how the Ricciardo exit was handled last year. I'll be very pleased if/when this all implodes on them when Verstappen loses patience and makes sure he can trigger an exit clause (there's no doubt he'll have clauses relating to car/team performance).
- Thread starter
- #113
Red Bull have now confirmed the switch in the last few minutes. The Race have a decent article looking into the reasoning RBR have given:
www.the-race.com
Red Bull rationale for brutal Lawson-Tsunoda U-turn explained
From the outside, Red Bull's decision to demote Liam Lawson so quickly and promote Yuki Tsunoda looks like a knee-jerk one. But the team has offered an explanation for it
www.the-race.com
- Nov 15, 2006
- 6,499
No 2 driver at Red Bull has been a poisoned chalice as long as I can remember, starting with when Vettel was No 1
Checo was a future star before he went to Red Bull, Albon has done OK since he got the boot too, as has Gasly. Ricciardo seems to have been mentally destroyed since he went there. Lawson has had zero backing.
Tsunoda has looked good so far, let’s see how he does at RB
Checo was a future star before he went to Red Bull, Albon has done OK since he got the boot too, as has Gasly. Ricciardo seems to have been mentally destroyed since he went there. Lawson has had zero backing.
Tsunoda has looked good so far, let’s see how he does at RB
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- Thread starter
- #116
Correction: Ricciardo bucked the trend - he came in as number 2, beat Vettel across the season, and became de-facto number 1 when Vettel left to Ferrari. Verstappen came in as number 2, won his first race at RBR off the back of strategy calls, and gradually usurped the #1 position ... triggering Ricciardo to leave. Ricciardo did great at Renault, before hitting McLaren and self-destructing with a car he just couldn't gel with.
But really, the RBR #2 seat being cursed is a "since Ricciardo left" thing. Webber's run as #2 he had the chance and performed to the best he and the car could reach and that was enough to challenge for a title in 2010 and more than adequately support Vettel to help RBR win WCC trophies. It's only really since Verstappen gained #1 status properly and Ricciardo leaving that the second RBR seat has become a career-killer.
Garry Nelson's Left Foot
Well-known member
Personally I think it's good news for Lawson, terrible news for Tsunoda.
Lawson can go about building his career while Yuki can have his destroyed/set back.
God, I'd laugh my arse off if Verstappen left red bull.
Lawson can go about building his career while Yuki can have his destroyed/set back.
God, I'd laugh my arse off if Verstappen left red bull.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,585
Being No.2 for Red Bull is the worst gig since being drummer for Spinal Tap.
- Thread starter
- #119
Haas have revealed a special one-off livery for Japan and the cherry blossom season:
Red Bull are also expected to reveal a special white livery to farewell Honda for the Japanese race. Could be interesting trying to separate a VCARB from a RBR...
Red Bull are also expected to reveal a special white livery to farewell Honda for the Japanese race. Could be interesting trying to separate a VCARB from a RBR...
AstroSloth
Well-known member
- Dec 29, 2020
- 1,748