[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[GoldstoneVintage]

I've just realised something this morning. The US has only one of two possible futures:

We know Trump et al will dismantle democracy so they'll never be voted out. Any future elections will be rigged. This means either America will continue to be a major global threat for the foreseeable future - expanding territory and destabilising other (democratic) countries. Think Russia but with way more money, power and influence.

Alternatively, enough ordinary Americans fightback and it's civil war 2.0. Either way, the future is not looking good for any of us. I hope we can keep our humanity, support our friends and try to resist this creeping evil.

 

[Nobby]

I thought I was very clear that it in no way justifies the actions, but that there are parts of Ukraine that consider themselves ethnically Russian. That there was a tiny seed of truth for the lie to grow around
I believe very few of them actually want to be part of Russia.

Meanwhile it appears the US plan for peace is just to give up on the seized land which is absolutely dispicable/entirely reasonable. *

*Delete depending on which conflict you're talking about.

I’m sorry? Which parts of Ukraine consider themselves ethnically Russian?
Stats to back that up anywhere?

 

[raymondo]

Sadly, Russia now has friends in high places....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62zm4eqvp7o

Witkoff seems to have been turned.

And I believe Putin said he refused Witkoff as a peace negotiator ...

 

[beorhthelm]

I’m sorry? Which parts of Ukraine consider themselves ethnically Russian?
Stats to back that up anywhere?

honestly, just put that question into google for some background, rather than spark a fight on the thread.

 

[Triggaaar]

I've just realised something this morning. The US has only one of two possible futures:

We know Trump et al will dismantle democracy so they'll never be voted out. Any future elections will be rigged. This means either America will continue to be a major global threat for the foreseeable future - expanding territory and destabilising other (democratic) countries. Think Russia but with way more money, power and influence.

Alternatively, enough ordinary Americans fightback and it's civil war 2.0. Either way, the future is not looking good for any of us. I hope we can keep our humanity, support our friends and try to resist this creeping evil.

Early on the alcohol this morning then.

So you don't think it's at all possible that the US avoids civil war and has a democratically minded president in 4 years?

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

Early on the alcohol this morning then.

So you don't think it's at all possible that the US avoids civil war and has a democratically minded president in 4 years?

Possible that they avoid civil war yes, but only if US evolves into a 'managed' democracy with some version of this administration getting reelected year after year a lá Russia.

BTW, not started on the sauce yet.

Interested to know how you think democracy might survive the current onslaught.

Edit:
PS, They've cowed Congress and are in the process of doing the same to the judiciary. Law enforcement, national security and military have all been decapited and leadership replaced with Trump loyalists. What's left that's gonna stop them?

 

[Triggaaar]

Possible that they avoid civil war yes, but only if US evolves into a 'managed' democracy with some version of this administration getting reelected year after year a lá Russia.

BTW, not started on the sauce yet.

Interested to know how you think democracy might survive the current onslaught.

Edit:
PS, They've cowed Congress and are in the process of doing the same to the judiciary. Law enforcement, national security and military have all been decapited and leadership replaced with Trump loyalists. What's left that's gonna stop them?

What's gonna stop them is definitely a good question. IMO democracy in the US is under attack, but you disagree, you think the attack is over and democracy in the US is gone.

The people still want democracy and there's still the process of elections in the US. That's not going to just disappear.

 

[Mr.Green]

Sanctions we're brought against Russia when they invaded Ukraine. Why are sanctions not being put in place against Trump because they are aiding Russia.

I had a conversation with someone in Russia who laughed when I asked if they were affected by sanctions. They have basically replaced what has been taken away and have come up with their own alternatives.

 

[Algernon]

Edit:
PS, They've cowed Congress and are in the process of doing the same to the judiciary. Law enforcement, national security and military have all been decapited and leadership replaced with Trump loyalists. What's left that's gonna stop them?

They become more like Russia every day the dumb dick Donald signs executive orders.
Will somebody please hide his black crayon.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

What's gonna stop them is definitely a good question. IMO democracy in the US is under attack, but you disagree, you think the attack is over and democracy in the US is gone.

The people still want democracy and there's still the process of elections in the US. That's not going to just disappear.

I agree that voting will still happen, but the fact is, no-one in the current administration even thinks the US should be a democracy. They will use every trick in the book to stay I power. If all else fails, there's even Martial law.

 

[Nobby]

honestly, just put that question into google for some background, rather than spark a fight on the thread.

And what’s the result? None

 

[SouthSaxon]

What's gonna stop them is definitely a good question. IMO democracy in the US is under attack, but you disagree, you think the attack is over and democracy in the US is gone.

The people still want democracy and there's still the process of elections in the US. That's not going to just disappear.

There are glimmers of hope - the campaign against Tesla, the judiciary fighting back in some areas, very high attendance for the rallies held by Bernie and AOC. But they’re not much more than that right now.

One of the first things that’s needed is to get Schumer and other defeatist democrats out. Until that’s done, there won’t be coherent opposition.

As for voting…it’s possible they’ve already tampered with that. I’m convinced there will be an attempt to suspend democracy before the mid-terms.

Things are very bleak. But not all hope is lost.

 

[peterward]

I've just realised something this morning. The US has only one of two possible futures:

We know Trump et al will dismantle democracy so they'll never be voted out. Any future elections will be rigged. This means either America will continue to be a major global threat for the foreseeable future - expanding territory and destabilising other (democratic) countries. Think Russia but with way more money, power and influence.

Alternatively, enough ordinary Americans fightback and it's civil war 2.0. Either way, the future is not looking good for any of us. I hope we can keep our humanity, support our friends and try to resist this creeping evil.

Kind of agree.... what is for sure, is that Trump/MAGA won't be removed by the ballot box.

Only revolution or direct action imho

 

[raymondo]

I thought I was very clear that it in no way justifies the actions, but that there are parts of Ukraine that consider themselves ethnically Russian. That there was a tiny seed of truth for the lie to grow around
I believe very few of them actually want to be part of Russia.

Meanwhile it appears the US plan for peace is just to give up on the seized land which is absolutely dispicable/entirely reasonable. *

*Delete depending on which conflict you're talking about.

True, a tiny seed, and Putin exported agents, agitators and weapons into Donbas, attracted a small number of disaffected locals, and then expanded this incursion with military.

 

[raymondo]

There are glimmers of hope - the campaign against Tesla, the judiciary fighting back in some areas, very high attendance for the rallies held by Bernie and AOC. But they’re not much more than that right now.

One of the first things that’s needed is to get Schumer and other defeatist democrats out. Until that’s done, there won’t be coherent opposition.

As for voting…it’s possible they’ve already tampered with that. I’m convinced there will be an attempt to suspend democracy before the mid-terms.

Things are very bleak. But not all hope is lost.

Agreed

 

[Triggaaar]

I agree that voting will still happen, but the fact is, no-one in the current administration even thinks the US should be a democracy. They will use every trick in the book to stay I power. If all else fails, there's even Marshall law.

Yes I expect them to try and stay in power, but aside from civil war, you've completely ruled out the possibility that they might fail.

 

[Triggaaar]

I had a conversation with someone in Russia who laughed when I asked if they were affected by sanctions. They have basically replaced what has been taken away and have come up with their own alternatives.

Well it's nice to know denial is still powerful.

Sure, they walk around the shops and everything is normal, people are all happily out shopping and discussing what they're doing for their holidays this year. Not affected at all, sure.

 

[Triggaaar]

Kind of agree.... what is for sure, is that Trump/MAGA won't be removed by the ballot box.

Well Trump isn't supposed to be removed by the ballot box because he's not allowed to stand again.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

Yes I expect them to try and stay in power, but aside from civil war, you've completely ruled out the possibility that they might fail.

Never say never, imho, but I'm certainly not counting on it. I don't think it's at all likely. If the US democracy was functioning normally, Trump (the insurectionist!) would not even have been allowed to stand in 2024.

 

[GoldstoneVintage]

Well Trump isn't supposed to be removed by the ballot box because he's not allowed to stand again.

Yes, but law doesn't matter if no-one will enforce it. Besides, does it really matter if the next wack job is Vance or anyone else wedded to this fascist death cult?