[News] Flying from Heathrow today (Fri 21 March) or picking up please read

[PascalGroß Tips]

I’d favor Virgin over BA any day, way more customer focused than BA these days imho.

I have only used BA twice in the last 15 years. I vowed never to use them again after an incident at check in when travelling with our son who needed to take a number of boxes of medical equipment with him. I had checked everything with BA customer services beforehand and they'd said there would be no issues - or extra charges - provided we had all the necessary medical documentation with us. How different it was at check-in. I was appalled and embarrassed at the long queue forming behind us. Eventually after a long delay and the check-in person making a number of phone calls, we were able to continue with no charges. Exact same thing happened on our return flight from Faro airport when we tried to check-in the leftover medical bits.

easyJet were superb - didn't bat an eyelid. Same with the airline we used (can't remember who) on a package ski holiday when we had to check in 12 boxes of medical stuff in addition to our luggage.

 

[A1X]

One electrical engineer now packing up and going to the job centre on Monday.

 

[Balders]

Put like this, I can see benefits. I admit I have not used an agent for about 25 years, the last time was a skiing trip with via an agent and using Crystal. It was awful. It seems things have moved on in this time .

It's the same as all things, there are good and bad and in life, you generally get what you pay for. Crystal 25 years ago was basically TUI under a different guise

Travel is the same - the market is changing, a US MLM company is disrupting the UK market and people can become a Travel Agent with little training for £60 up front and £40 a month - I'll let you decide if you'd trust thousands of your hard earned using somebody who does it as a "side hussle" predominantly.

I will admit that until I started this business 11 years ago I was a "direct booker" but I've invested in a proper business and trust me the things I've seen happen and what agents can offer, I wouldn't book DIY again. It's one of those things that if nothing goes wrong, it's not an issue. Depending on what it is, agents can offer competitive pricing, plus you are getting a wealth of experience on which hotels are decent and which are VFM etc...

In theory I can use 300+ different suppliers - I know which ones are decent and which ones are not, but there's usually a price trade off. Covid taught the market a number of things, not least which suppliers genuinely care about looking after customers and those that definitely don't!

But...... it's down to Individuals to decide what suits and how they want to book......

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I am sure there are a few sub standard travel agents, generally large ones.

As for airlines, Virgin I found to be OK. BA though, I’d never have dealt with them by choice as their attitude to agents stinks and from some clients experiences seems they are not much better with the general public. When I started in travel BA were brilliant at sorting problems, latterly the arrogance and lack of interest both astounded and annoyed me in equal measure. Absolutely fine….until you have a problem. Obviously there are exceptions and some very efficient and helpful BA staff but in the main, nah.

Virgin as a business seemed to have a very dim view on TAs, they stopped them selling the Holidays product and opened their own stores as they didn't trust TAs with the brand and selling it correctly.

I was working in the Base during covid times the director who came in daily made it very clear they would be the last to get their money back and they started pumping out shitter commissions to some.

 

[Flounce]

Virgin as a business seemed to have a very dim view on TAs, they stopped them selling the Holidays product and opened their own stores as they didn't trust TAs with the brand and selling it correctly.

I was working in the Base during covid times the director who came in daily made it very clear they would be the last to get their money back and they started pumping out shitter commissions to some.

Must have been for package business as flights are refunded instantly for IATA agents.

May have changed but BA used to have an Agents Only line, and refused to speak to agents on any other telephone number. Seeing as we were doing the work for them and being paid zero commission charging 50p plus VAT a minute for the privilege and ensuring they kept you on the line for ages by being slow witted was pretty annoying. Their agent only line was only open from 9am to 6pm too, Hateful airline

I always found Virgin much easier to deal with and their reps much better and more able to help with problems. Do BA even have reps these days? Pretty sure they were phasing them out as agents (selling BA for no remuneration as far as BA were concerned) weren’t worth dealing with was my take. The obsession with driving everything direct and online always seemed to me to be a very short sighted policy

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

It's a really interesting subject, so forgive me in "indulging" once again, based on a couple of comments above!

Technically, once an Airline cancels your flight, regardless of who you booked with, then you become the Airline's responsibility and if you have booked flight only with an agent, that's how it works, but a good agent will sort it all for you and depending on the airline, may have access to more options than you may see on an app or a website.

Where an agent can really add value is if the cancelled flights were part of a package as there are additional responsibilities, not only to get you away on holiday but also to get you back!

One good example of many, I had a customer book a package to go to Rwanda and then onto Dar Es Salam and finally on to Zanzibar. To get all the flights on one ticket (the most cost effective way) we booked Air Rwanda for all the legs, but the customer would get the ferry back from Zanzibar to Dar pick up the Air Rwanda flight home as they don't fly or codeshare out of Zanzibar.

Day before the return flight, Air Rwanda cancelled the flight - we knew before the customer so whatsapp sent to say we are working on it. Air Rwanda could only get him back 3 days later, but as this was a Package there was additional responsibility to get the customer back quicker, if possible. Rebooked the customer on an Ethiopian flight out of Zanzibar (no need for the ferry to Dar - result!) on the same day as the cancelled Air Rwanda flight - all at no cost to the customer and all sorted with the customer via whatspp.

If that was booked "flight only" the choice would be wait 3 days or cancel the Air Rwanda flight and wait for a refund and pay for the Ethiopian flight out of you own pocket.

Welcome welcome

I think agencies are a valuable part of the industry, they offer guidance and more protections than doing it on your own.

Having done both Tour Operator and Airline I can see why people would use both.

I don't think you will get better service in the industry than travel counsellors due to the way they are set up and operate.

So using the BA/VS example again, Over the past couple of years they have announced tons more ticketing agreements with other airlines, the only main ones they can't use now are EK/Easy/Ryan so they are proactively booking customers on these services.

Now this of course depends who you book with airline wise.

Yesterday I saw customer rebooked automatically on every bloody airline under the sun !

You generally sound like one of the good agents, working at airlines I think you are a dying breed.

 

[dazzer6666]

Been an avid (often forced due to company policy) and very regular user of BA for about 30 years (this is my first year without a Gold or Silver card). Virtually everything about them has gone downhill imo, whilst from a price perspective they are becoming less and less competitive. Their app/website is also shite. I don’t try to maintain status with them any more, just pick the best option for where I’m trying to go….only downside will be the lack of Avios and a couple of almost-free long haul flights in club every year.

 

[Balders]

Virgin as a business seemed to have a very dim view on TAs, they stopped them selling the Holidays product and opened their own stores as they didn't trust TAs with the brand and selling it correctly.

I was working in the Base during covid times the director who came in daily made it very clear they would be the last to get their money back and they started pumping out shitter commissions to some.

All interesting stuff, so the response from a Travel Agent!

Virgin Holidays as a Tour Op are now direct sell only, but other Agents/Tour Ops still get access to Virgin flights and can package up in exactly the same way that Virgin Holidays do.

It's the new in thing to do from a number of airlines who now have Tour Operations, BA Holidays is exactly the same, direct sell only but Agents/Tour Ops get access to their flights. Emirates Holidays are the same, as are Etihad Holidays, Jet2 and easyJet, but they embrace the Trade and Agents can quote exactly the same pricing. The strategy is that they discount their own flights (or codeshares in respect of BA) because they are also earning on the accommodation and other ground elements assuming they offer the accommodation you are interested in. So buying a flight separately from those airlines and sorting your own accommodation if they carry it, in theory, should be more expensive.

Here's the thing from a Travel Agent perspective, whereas all those airlines with Tour Operations only sell their own flights, Virgin Holidays sell other airlines, much like a traditional Tour Operator. If someone comes to me with a BA Holidays quote I know it's going to be hard work to get near it, but Virgin Holidays are never an issue to compete with - I suspect Virgin want you to "buy the brand".....

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Must have been for package business as flights are refunded instantly for IATA agents.

May have changed but BA used to have an Agents Only line, and refused to speak to agents on any other telephone number. Seeing as we were doing the work for them and being paid zero commission charging 50p plus VAT a minute for the privilege and ensuring they kept you on the line for ages by being slow witted was pretty annoying. Their agent only line was only open from 9am to 6pm too, Hateful airline

I always found Virgin much easier to deal with and their reps much better and more able to help with problems. Do BA even have reps these days? Pretty sure they were phasing them out as agents (selling BA for no remuneration as far as BA were concerned) weren’t worth dealing with was my take. The obsession with driving everything direct and online always seemed to me to be a very short sighted policy

They cut the banking during covid, I saw a the final demand payments for agents/suppliers (Rosen, Alamo, sandals just a few) even the stationary company in manor royal refused to deal with them

Virgin also run a trade only line (when I left may have changed) this was only Mon-Fri, Luke who was in charge of the trade saw anything else as a waste of money and they could wait.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I am sure there are a few sub standard travel agents, generally large ones.

As for airlines, Virgin I found to be OK. BA though, I’d never have dealt with them by choice as their attitude to agents stinks and from some clients experiences seems they are not much better with the general public. When I started in travel BA were brilliant at sorting problems, latterly the arrogance and lack of interest both astounded and annoyed me in equal measure. Absolutely fine….until you have a problem. Obviously there are exceptions and some very efficient and helpful BA staff but in the main, nah.

BA were fantastic decades ago. You only notice the true quality of an airline when things go wrong and with BA you’ve hit the nail on the head with arrogance and disinterest these days. Virgin on the other hand have always been helpful even when the issue was my fuckwitery.

North West were also pretty understanding when I decided at short notice I was unfit/incapable to fly to Detroit due to an LCD Soundsystem gig the night before

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

All interesting stuff, so the response from a Travel Agent!

Virgin Holidays as a Tour Op are now direct sell only, but other Agents/Tour Ops still get access to Virgin flights and can package up in exactly the same way that Virgin Holidays do.

It's the new in thing to do from a number of airlines who now have Tour Operations, BA Holidays is exactly the same, direct sell only but Agents/Tour Ops get access to their flights. Emirates Holidays are the same, as are Etihad Holidays, Jet2 and easyJet, but they embrace the Trade and Agents can quote exactly the same pricing. The strategy is that they discount their own flights because they are also earning on the accommodation and other ground elements assuming they offer the accommodation you are interested in. So buying a flight separately from those airlines and sorting your own accommodation if they carry it, in theory, should be more expensive.

Here's the thing from a Travel Agent perspective, whereas all those airlines with Tour Operations only sell their own flights, Virgin Holidays sell other airlines, much like a traditional Tour Operator. If someone comes to me with a BA Holidays quote I know it's going to be hard work to get near it, but Virgin Holidays are never an issue to compete with - I suspect Virgin want you to "buy the brand".....

Btw I'm currently sitting in LGW, fully booked package holiday.



I think I am in a good position to see how Virgin has changed, I started in 2010 (rockstar service) and was there till 2021, it's was interesting to see how they relaunched and rebranded, you are spot on they want you to buy the brand, the problem they have is they have taken it right back - Vroom/Check in chill out/reps all pretty much gone - the reps office in Tropicana has gone (obs) as has the Orlando one and when I left they were down to 8 reps in Orlando

Vhols (or should I say VAH now) stopped using other airlines as a go to other than EK (who they wanted to bin, but would have cost them millions in sales) they want bums on virgin / delta metal and slightly lesser KLM/Air France

It's backfired as Vhols always used to make money, but since they merged they haven't and are making more people redundant this week.

I'm shocked Shai is still the CEO there if I'm honest!

 

[Balders]

Welcome welcome

I think agencies are a valuable part of the industry, they offer guidance and more protections than doing it on your own.

Having done both Tour Operator and Airline I can see why people would use both.

I don't think you will get better service in the industry than travel counsellors due to the way they are set up and operate.

So using the BA/VS example again, Over the past couple of years they have announced tons more ticketing agreements with other airlines, the only main ones they can't use now are EK/Easy/Ryan so they are proactively booking customers on these services.

Now this of course depends who you book with airline wise.

Yesterday I saw customer rebooked automatically on every bloody airline under the sun !

You generally sound like one of the good agents, working at airlines I think you are a dying breed.

I considered Travel Councellors 11yrs ago but went with a similar set up and agree that's where you'll get the best service with them and similar set ups (why wouldn't I )

There is a lot of dross out there, why people spend thousands with a p/t agent who's main business is Hairdressing or Dog Grooming is beyond me, but each to their own. Obviously I'm a member of some large Agents Social Media Groups - they are enlightening and reading some of the stuff on there, I wouldn't trust half of them to post a letter. Trustpilot reviews are also enlightening when you look at the bigger online travel agents......

If you can find a decent Agent who offers decent pricing and service, why wouldn't you?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I considered Travel Councellors 11yrs ago but went with a similar set up and agree that's where you'll get the best service with them and similar set ups (why wouldn't I )

There is a lot of dross out there, why people spend thousands with a p/t agent who's main business is Hairdressing or Dog Grooming is beyond me, but each to their own. Obviously I'm a member of some large Agents Social Media Groups - they are enlightening and reading some of the stuff on there, I wouldn't trust half of them to post a letter. Trustpilot reviews are also enlightening when you look at the bigger online travel agents......

If you can find a decent Agent who offers decent pricing and service, why wouldn't you?

TC and the like need to be on top of their game, which is why the service is elite, I know a few people that went down that root, one lasted 6 months the other is thriving, we could tell that before they left.

I watch a few blogs online for background noise, some of the rubbish they come out with is laughable, all sponsored

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Enlightening thread!

 

[Balders]

Btw I'm currently sitting in LGW, fully booked package holiday.



I think I am in a good position to see how Virgin has changed, I started in 2010 (rockstar service) and was there till 2021, it's was interesting to see how they relaunched and rebranded, you are spot on they want you to buy the brand, the problem they have is they have taken it right back - Vroom/Check in chill out/reps all pretty much gone - the reps office in Tropicana has gone (obs) as has the Orlando one and when I left they were down to 8 reps in Orlando

Vhols (or should I say VAH now) stopped using other airlines as a go to other than EK (who they wanted to bin, but would have cost them millions in sales) they want bums on virgin / delta metal and slightly lesser KLM/Air France

It's backfired as Vhols always used to make money, but since they merged they haven't and are making more people redundant this week.

I'm shocked Shai is still the CEO there if I'm honest!

I echo all of the above - the problem VAH has is that Virgin just doesn't have anywhere near the same route network as BA, Emirates, Etihad etc.... for Long Haul (it's basically the Caribbean!) and nothing for Short Haul like Jet2, easyJet, TUI etc... Without utilising EK, they'd have very limited options in comparison.

Fair play to them for trying to get into the Maldives, but their naivety has led to a bit of a PR disaster recently. Everyone knows the Maldives is a unique destination, but they recently changed their flight times with the inbound changing to 8:20am. Everyone knows that Maldives Seaplanes only guarantee a connection from your resort on the inbound for international flights departing after 9am! That caused carnage for a couple of weeks as resorts told customers they'd have to leave resort a night early and spend their last night in Male! The flight time was swiftly changed back to after 9am

As with everything, it's all cyclical - take TUI as an example, they've been anti agent for years offering the shitiest commission to agents and barriers such as higher deposits, so most Agents didn't sell them and switch sold to other Operators. The ascendancy of Jet2 and easyJet massively impacted TUI's market share (easyJet and Jet2 love the Trade) so in the last 12 months TUI have done a complete u-turn, they've invested in the Trade, upped commissions to levels higher than their competition and lowered deposits and the Trade are happy to use them again.

It's a funny old world....

 

[abc]

Just looking at the location of the substation on Google Maps

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

If it was a hostile actor of some description, it's actually quite staggering that a seemingly vital piece of national infrastructure is so easily accessed, this is an open public road and just round the corner is a housing estate. While there's doubtless CCTV and the like, that place hardly looks like Fort Knox to me. Have we as a nation just been a bit complacent about all this stuff?

Yes and that has been the ‘peace dividend’ since the end of the cold war. We have also taken our freedoms for granted and become obsessed with too many things (from influencers and celebs to cancel culture and veganism) that those in less fortunate countries would not give a t*ss about.

We, as a society, need to wake up and realise that having those freedoms has a price and that means allowing our governments to prioritise our defence and protecting our infrastructure etc. If that means paying more tax then so be it.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I echo all of the above - the problem VAH has is that Virgin just doesn't have anywhere near the same route network as BA, Emirates, Etihad etc.... for Long Haul (it's basically the Caribbean!) and nothing for Short Haul like Jet2, easyJet, TUI etc... Without utilising EK, they'd have very limited options in comparison.

Fair play to them for trying to get into the Maldives, but their naivety has led to a bit of a PR disaster recently. Everyone knows the Maldives is a unique destination, but they recently changed their flight times with the inbound changing to 8:20am. Everyone knows that Maldives Seaplanes only guarantee a connection from your resort on the inbound for international flights departing after 9am! That caused carnage for a couple of weeks as resorts told customers they'd have to leave resort a night early and spend their last night in Male! The flight time was swiftly changed back to after 9am

As with everything, it's all cyclical - take TUI as an example, they've been anti agent for years offering the shitiest commission to agents and barriers such as higher deposits, so most Agents didn't sell them and switch sold to other Operators. The ascendancy of Jet2 and easyJet massively impacted TUI's market share (easyJet and Jet2 love the Trade) so in the last 12 months TUI have done a complete u-turn, they've invested in the Trade, upped commissions to levels higher than their competition and lowered deposits and the Trade are happy to use them again.

It's a funny old world....

Omg I didn't know they had launched the flight time as that, that is actually hilarious, sums up how they don't think things through properly.

Without going culture wars, I don't overly care either way, they just keep having these PR disasters, they launched the crew can wear any gender uniform/they are second to none for LGBT fund raising, yet have launched routes to Saudi, the crew are rightly pissed off , just looks like double standards as well.

After Covid they stripped back the Vhols duty office and the manager who was out in charge had no idea of what was needed from a package holiday company as she was an airline bod, her first action was to remove hurricane procedure as she didn't understand why it was needed,

The wife works in recruitment there still so I have an inside of how it's going there.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Not the Russian MO really is it? A cyber attack maybe, but physically blowing something up? Nah, way to much risk of it coming back to bite them on the arse.

The cyber attack on it is what I thought it could be. As everything is pretty much digitally operated, although, knowing the UK, probably not haha

 

[Bry Nylon]

Put like this, I can see benefits. I admit I have not used an agent for about 25 years, the last time was a skiing trip with via an agent and using Crystal. It was awful. It seems things have moved on in this time .

Back at the dawn of the internet era, a few mates and I booked a ski trip to Banff in the Canadian rockies by sourcing flights, transfers, ski passes and hotel accommodation online ourselves.

When we came to check out of the hotel on departure, the receptionist said she’d assumed we were part of the all-inclusive party of guests from Crystal and had just charged all our drinks and meals etc for the past 10 days to the main Crystal account.

We explained that wasn’t the case, we’d never tried to pretend or claim otherwise and we’d better settle up - but gloriously she said it would be way too complicated to reverse all the individual charges and effectively we’d just had the Canadian equivalent of a right result!

Happy days.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Back at the dawn of the internet era, a few mates and I booked a ski trip to Banff in the Canadian rockies by sourcing flights, transfers, ski passes and hotel accommodation online ourselves.

When we came to check out of the hotel on departure, the receptionist said she’d assumed we were part of the all-inclusive party of guests from Crystal and had just charged all our drinks and meals etc for the past 10 days to the main Crystal account.

We explained that wasn’t the case, we’d never tried to pretend or claim otherwise and we’d better settle up - but gloriously she said it would be way to complicated to reverse all the individual charges and effectively we’d just had the Canadian equivalent of a right result!

Happy days.

This might explain why our holiday was so shit, Crystal had cut all corners in an attempt to claw back the excesses of the @Bry Nylon Canadian party!