[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[SouthSaxon]

The Times quotes say exactly the same as you… that they have in the past tried to link to…

That’s all.

We are in agreement here, I just haven’t really expressed myself well.

Fair enough and, to be clear, I was open to being corrected with new information on the subject

The main point is that Starmer has tried to organise an alliance of the willing or whatever and Macron has stood beside him but as always greed (on both sides here- French and English) is the stumbling block.

To be honest they both look … self serving ?

They would argue they are serving the interests of their respective nations, which is their primary responsibility after all.

My view is that often in life - being opposed to one side does not mean you are In favour of the other side.

Agree, that is a possibility we should be open to when considering how we interpret what we’re told.

In a world of c****s I would include, Trump, Putin, Zelenskyy, Macron and Starmer for a start.

In my definition of c****s, only the first two names qualify unreservedly. I disagree on Zelenskyy, but don’t feel able to judge Macron beyond the scope of his recent foreign policy stuff, where he’s shown good leadership and rhetoric (but must back this up with action).

Starmer…I am really split between his approach to this crisis (same as Macron above) and domestic policy which I’ve been disappointed by. At the same time, there are things I support in principle (civil service and NHS reform) and I believe the biggest problem with this government so far by a country mile is Rachel Reeves. I would be happy to see her included among those fishing quotas you mentioned and sold to France or Spain for a small fee.

I can’t think of one of them that wouldn’t sacrifice peace for financial gain or political stature.

Cautiously disagree on Macron & Starmer. Fully disagree on Zelenskyy, he’s had opportunities aplenty and consistently not taken them.

You might think I have no time for current world leaders and I have to admit I’m struggling to think of one I do have time for.

I have much sympathy with this view. There are charlatans (Trump, Putin and numerous others) and many more who are just mediocre or flatter to deceive.

Merz offers promise, I think, but it’s too soon to say. The Scandinavians mostly have their heads on straight, especially the Finns - no coincidence that their standards of education are higher than most, I think that’s a big part of why there’s so much mediocrity in the UK.

 

[Eric the meek]

Merz offers promise, I think, but it’s too soon to say. The Scandinavians mostly have their heads on straight, especially the Finns - no coincidence that their standards of education are higher than most, I think that’s a big part of why there’s so much mediocrity in the UK.

I see Finland has been voted the happiest country for the eighth year. Neighbouring Russia has a way to go I think.

 

[raymondo]

I see Finland has been voted the happiest country for the eighth year. Neighbouring Russia has a way to go I think.

The Finns are very 'real' I think, having worked closely with a group of them some years ago. They don't wring their hands and go into denial - they face problems and figure out what to do about it.
I think their approach is a big part of their happiness.

 

[Rdodge30]

Fully disagree on Zelenskyy, he’s had opportunities aplenty and consistently not taken them

I am naturally suspicious and am very wary of falling into the trap that because Putin is evil therefore Zelenskyy must be good?

The total Ukraine aid from 2022 up to and including December 2024 from Europe and the U.S. is 245 billion. That’s astonishing isn’t it. I can’t think of any world political event or any scenario where I would not suspect foul play when those sorts of figures are circulating. It’s hard to know what to believe, as much as I mock on here with the right wing press or the internet… I don’t have the opportunity to fact check anything let alone everything. Are there low key new Ukrainian billionaires in Dubai? I don’t know but if it turned out that there were, would I be shocked? Absolutely not. Has Zelenskyy banned political parties in his own country? I have no idea - if it’s true would I be shocked? Absolutely not.


Cynical I know but there you are, I yam what I yam.

All the clips of Zelenskyy tweeking out .. are they generated by Russian AI ? I have no idea… well you get my drift.


*Macron showed his true colours when he blew up the deal with us for border patrol - yet another claim for billions

 

[jakarta]

Finns kicked Russia's arse in WW2, marvellous scenes...

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I am naturally suspicious and am very wary of falling into the trap that because Putin is evil therefore Zelenskyy must be good?

The total Ukraine aid from 2022 up to and including December 2024 from Europe and the U.S. is 245 billion. That’s astonishing isn’t it. I can’t think of any world political event or any scenario where I would not suspect foul play when those sorts of figures are circulating. It’s hard to know what to believe, as much as I mock on here with the right wing press or the internet… I don’t have the opportunity to fact check anything let alone everything. Are there low key new Ukrainian billionaires in Dubai? I don’t know but if it turned out that there were, would I be shocked? Absolutely not. Has Zelenskyy banned political parties in his own country? I have no idea - if it’s true would I be shocked? Absolutely not.


Cynical I know but there you are, I yam what I yam.

All the clips of Zelenskyy tweeking out .. are they generated by Russian AI ? I have no idea… well you get my drift.


*Macron showed his true colours when he blew up the deal with us for border patrol - yet another claim for billions

The aid figure is somewhat distorted insofar as much of the aid was spent within the donator’s country. The corruption is likely to be there

 

[SouthSaxon]

I am naturally suspicious and am very wary of falling into the trap that because Putin is evil therefore Zelenskyy must be good?

Things are rarely that black and white, I agree. But Zelenskyy didn’t run at the start of the war when the consensus was Ukraine would collapse within weeks. He’s also offered to step down in exchange for NATO membership.

This says a lot about his motivations and intentions. That doesn’t make him a saint but he doesn’t need to be, relative to Putin. Neither, for example was Churchill - he was the bastard we needed at the time.

The total Ukraine aid from 2022 up to and including December 2024 from Europe and the U.S. is 245 billion. That’s astonishing isn’t it.

Not to my mind. War is very expensive. It’s also very profitable.

I can’t think of any world political event or any scenario where I would not suspect foul play when those sorts of figures are circulating. It’s hard to know what to believe, as much as I mock on here with the right wing press or the internet… I don’t have the opportunity to fact check anything let alone everything. Are there low key new Ukrainian billionaires in Dubai? I don’t know but if it turned out that there were, would I be shocked? Absolutely not.

There is corruption in every country. It’s also important to note that a lot of the aid money doesn’t go to Ukraine as such - it’s used to purchase equipment on Ukraine’s behalf. There are safeguards for this type of thing, though you’d be right to point out that it doesn’t guarantee an absence of corruption.

Has Zelenskyy banned political parties in his own country? I have no idea - if it’s true would I be shocked? Absolutely not.

Yes, he has. According to Wikipedia (see the History section, toward the end), he’s banned 19 in total since the invasion. Ukraine seems to have a LOT of parties compared to what we’re used to.

However, given these were either pro-Russian or subversive, that’s fair enough - we banned the British Union of Fascists in May 1940, to guard against 5th columnists.

Cynical I know but there you are, I yam what I yam.

It’s good to be sceptical. I am too, but I try to keep myself as informed as I can do with the free time available to me. It helps that history is a special interest of mine and I have some (limited) research experience.

I try to look at multiple sources and, whenever possible, the original reference being reported on (for example, government statements). There’s often nuance that gets missed or glossed over. Our exchange today is an example where I’ve done that.

I also think it’s important to have open discussions with people who appear to be on the other side of the argument. That’s not the same as a few on here who just openly troll.

 

[Triggaaar]

Zelensky? You mean this bloke, who on the night of the invasion, stayed, and didn't run?
The one whose face you saw, and not his back?

Quite simply, at that moment, he saved his country.

It's deluded to see it any other way

 

[Triggaaar]

I see Finland has been voted the happiest country for the eighth year. Neighbouring Russia has a way to go I think.

So you're saying that if Putin wants happier citizens, he should make the Finish Russian?

 

[Nobby]

The Times quotes say exactly the same as you… that they have in the past tried to link to…

That’s all.

We are in agreement here, I just haven’t really expressed myself well.

The main point is that Starmer has tried to organise an alliance of the willing or whatever and Macron has stood beside him but as always greed (on both sides here- French and English) is the stumbling block.

To be honest they both look … self serving ?


My view is that often in life - being opposed to one side does not mean you are In favour of the other side.

In a world of c****s I would include, Trump, Putin, Zelenskyy, Macron and Starmer for a start.

I can’t think of one of them that wouldn’t sacrifice peace for financial gain or political stature.

You might think I have no time for current world leaders and I have to admit I’m struggling to think of one I do have time for.

Idiot

 

[Fungus]

If you want a bit of light relief, watch Elementary (the wonderful Sherlock Holmes helping the NYPD), season 4 episode 9 - “Murder ex Machina”. From 2016, it’s set against the background of the Russia-Ukraine war of the time, with lots about covert peace discussions, and who gains or loses from continuing war or achieving peace. Also features a tech bro that’s involved with driverless cars and plans to colonise Mars and the Moon. It felt incredibly contemporary, despite being nine years old. Also very funny. And I’m sure that was Vance in the strip club. 🫣

Okay, me and Sherlock again… season 4, episode 14 - “Who is that Masked Man”. With a side plot about an attempt to kill Sherlock’s father, Morland Holmes. The assassin is a Russian named Krasnov. I’m sure they’re trying to tell us something.

 

[Eric the meek]

So you're saying that if Putin wants happier citizens, he should make the Finish Russian?

You've reminded me of the propagandist Solovyov, who in one programme, lamented the fact that before the war, Russia only had a 2000 km western border of unfriendly nations, whereas after they began to 'demilitarise and denazify' Ukraine, and Finland joined Nato, they now had a 3000 km western border of unfriendly nations.

He didn't make the connection that Russian aggression = a longer border of unfriendly nations. Or maybe he did, but pretended not to, because he was aiming at the TV audience. Russia is such an exceeedingly weird place. No wonder the citizens are as miserable as Medvedev.

 

[The Clamp]

The Times quotes say exactly the same as you… that they have in the past tried to link to…

That’s all.

We are in agreement here, I just haven’t really expressed myself well.

The main point is that Starmer has tried to organise an alliance of the willing or whatever and Macron has stood beside him but as always greed (on both sides here- French and English) is the stumbling block.

To be honest they both look … self serving ?


My view is that often in life - being opposed to one side does not mean you are In favour of the other side.

In a world of c****s I would include, Trump, Putin, Zelenskyy, Macron and Starmer for a start.

I can’t think of one of them that wouldn’t sacrifice peace for financial gain or political stature.

You might think I have no time for current world leaders and I have to admit I’m struggling to think of one I do have time for.

This is all very questionable.

 

[raymondo]

You've reminded me of the propagandist Solovyov, who in one programme, lamented the fact that before the war, Russia only had a 2000 km western border of unfriendly nations, whereas after they began to 'demilitarise and denazify' Ukraine, and Finland joined Nato, they now had a 3000 km western border of unfriendly nations.

He didn't make the connection that Russian aggression = a longer border of unfriendly nations. Or maybe he did, but pretended not to, because he was aiming at the TV audience. Russia is such an exceeedingly weird place. No wonder the citizens are as miserable as Medvedev.

As miserable and frequently as drunk as Medvedev.
I didn't see that particular Solovyov episode (#1024 ish). Sounds like a satirical one .

 

[Rdodge30]

From the outside looking in it looks like a lot of warmongering and multi billion pound deals that depend on war. (Ironically it seems that Trump looks to have found a way to make himself a huge profit through peace and the mineral rights deal) it’s possible those same minerals have been on Putin’s mind all along.

We have the French and the English in dispute over whose arms dealers will get a chunk of the latest 150 billion arms deal…. What’s that ? Ukraine buying 150 billions worth of arms - oh no - it’s 150 billion fund put together by European leaders from their taxpayers, falling over themselves to change their laws to draw more money out… no doubt they are the same as our leaders in this country telling us over and over again there’s no money … tough decisions… tighten our belts … worse before it gets better.

Zelenskyy, already well in to the tune of a quarter of a trillion, (£12.8billion and counting from the UK) storms out of the White House … arrives in Downing Street at practically the speed of f…..g light - gets £2.2 billion from Number 9, nips next door to Number 10 and picks up another £2.6 billion, ..quick photo op and gone.

Starmer then pledges £3 billion a year for as long as it takes !

 

[The Clamp]

From the outside looking in it looks like a lot of warmongering and multi billion pound deals that depend on war. (Ironically it seems that Trump looks to have found a way to make himself a huge profit through peace and the mineral rights deal) it’s possible those same minerals have been on Putin’s mind all along.

We have the French and the English in dispute over whose arms dealers will get a chunk of the latest 150 billion arms deal…. What’s that ? Ukraine buying 150 billions worth of arms - oh no - it’s 150 billion fund put together by European leaders from their taxpayers, falling over themselves to change their laws to draw more money out… no doubt they are the same as our leaders in this country telling us over and over again there’s no money … tough decisions… tighten our belts … worse before it gets better.

Zelenskyy, already well in to the tune of a quarter of a trillion, (£12.8billion and counting from the UK) storms out of the White House … arrives in Downing Street at practically the speed of f…..g light - gets £2.2 billion from Number 9, nips next door to Number 10 and picks up another £2.6 billion, ..quick photo op and gone.

Starmer then pledges £3 billion a year for as long as it takes !

Good isn’t it.

I am glad Europe is spending as much as it takes to halt a man who, given the slightest chance, will march his armies all over Europe, destroying everyone and everything in their path.

And point of fact; Zelenskyy did not storm out of the White House. Trump threw him out because Zelenskyy dared to stand up for himself. Whereupon he made his way to a scheduled visit to Downing Street .

You are of course entitled to your own opinion just not your own made up “facts”.

There is an argument that we are spending too much on this war. One can make that argument without all the made up nonsense.

 

[Triggaaar]

Zelenskyy, already well in to the tune of a quarter of a trillion, (£12.8billion and counting from the UK) storms out of the White House

Have you got evidence of him storming out of the White House?

… arrives in Downing Street at practically the speed of f…..g light - gets £2.2 billion from Number 9, nips next door to Number 10 and picks up another £2.6 billion, ..quick photo op and gone.

Starmer then pledges £3 billion a year for as long as it takes !

I presume you'd rather we let Russia rebuild their empire and kill hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians instead?

 

[raymondo]

Have you got evidence of him storming out of the White House?




I presume you'd rather we let Russia rebuild their empire and kill hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians instead?

And other nationalities after they're done with Ukraine.

 

[raymondo]

Good isn’t it.

I am glad Europe is spending as much as it takes to halt a man who, given the slightest chance, will march his armies all over Europe, destroying everyone and everything in their path.

And point of fact; Zelenskyy did not storm out of the White House. Trump threw him out because Zelenskyy dared to stand up for himself. Whereupon he made his way to a scheduled visit to Downing Street .

You are of course entitled to your own opinion just not your own made up “facts”.

There is an argument that we are spending too much on this war. One can make that argument without all the made up nonsense.

Yep,and there's also an argument that we haven't spent enough or fast enough

 

[fly high]

From the outside looking in it looks like a lot of warmongering and multi billion pound deals that depend on war. (Ironically it seems that Trump looks to have found a way to make himself a huge profit through peace and the mineral rights deal) it’s possible those same minerals have been on Putin’s mind all along.

We have the French and the English in dispute over whose arms dealers will get a chunk of the latest 150 billion arms deal…. What’s that ? Ukraine buying 150 billions worth of arms - oh no - it’s 150 billion fund put together by European leaders from their taxpayers, falling over themselves to change their laws to draw more money out… no doubt they are the same as our leaders in this country telling us over and over again there’s no money … tough decisions… tighten our belts … worse before it gets better.

Zelenskyy, already well in to the tune of a quarter of a trillion, (£12.8billion and counting from the UK) storms out of the White House … arrives in Downing Street at practically the speed of f…..g light - gets £2.2 billion from Number 9, nips next door to Number 10 and picks up another £2.6 billion, ..quick photo op and gone.

Starmer then pledges £3 billion a year for as long as it takes !

I take it you would rather Ukraine falls and a few years down the line a stronger Russia goes to war again, maybe against Nato. If USA really does turn it's back on us Russia will be far more confident.