[News] Should the United Kingdom Give Back the Elgin Marbles?

[Comrade Sam]

Yes and give Venezuela back it's gold. We can easily make 3d replicas of all this stuff.
I remember climbing Pergamon in Turkey to see a temple, only to find a plaque saying it was in the British Museum. It's all an antiquities version of Portugal stripping it's empire bare when it was forced to leave.

 

[Brovion]

When the Turks sold bits of the Parthenon frieze to Lord Elgin, it was one transaction amongst many of antiquities from all over the world. The frieze itself was never seen by the public, as it was on the inside of the the Parthenon ( Athena’s temple) and was basically a decoration which represented a parade of Athenian citizens.

i waffle on because it was never seen as a great treasure ( even Pausanias the Roman travel writer didn’t mention it in his journal of the treasures of the Hellenic world and he wrote a lot about the Parthenon.)

that said, it has become a symbol of Greece being stripped of its antiquities….there are far more important examples of Hellenic temples in museums around the world, that far outstrip the frieze.

personally I have no problem giving it back, BUT at what point do you stop? Do you strip out every museum in the world of its “ treasures” ? The Louvre and Berlin museums have as many antiquities as the BM, as does the ashmolean in Oxford and the new york museum of arts….even the fantastic National Museum in Naples has magnificent Roman bits and bobs from pompeii etc…BUT they have nationally important Hellenic pots and votive vases etc that should be returned if we are going down that route.

long winded reply but this is not just about the Nasty f***ing english stripping the world of its treasures

Indeed. I always used to say 'Yes, give them back' (I think I said it the last time this topic was discussed), but having now bothered to research it I found it wasn't quite as simple as the nasty colonial Brits ripping sacred treasures from the hand of weeping locals. As you say it is more nuanced than that, and where do you stop?

I'm still, marginally, 'Yes give them back, but I appreciate that it will open a huge can of worms - however maybe it has to be opened. Maybe the days of having the artifacts of another country in a foreign museum will have to end, in the same way that zoos no longer house and display exotic animals. It will take a LOT of effort and negotiation (and cause a lot of trouble), but maybe that is the path we have to tread. Maybe.

 

[Lenny Rider]

They do need to be careful about suggesting all this ‘returning’ mullarkey.

Imagine if Uncle Donald thinks he might be able to return swathes of African Americans back to the mother continent?

 

[Winker]

I think Tony should buy them and put them on the Terrace as decoration.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

In theory - yes - but it opens a can of worms - every museum in the world would get demands to return stuff.

 

[GT49er]

I've been there (The British Museum, that is), seen 'em - and have no great ambition to go and see them again, so from my point of view I'm fine with sending them back - but then, I hadn't considered the arguments that have been put forward about every other tom dick and harry wanting everything else from the dawn of history back - I can indeed se that as a can of worms.
Perhaps Greece should concede that they were legitimately purchased from the authorities at the time - and in keeping with that, at a reasonable (nor extortionate) price, buy them back? So that it returns to them as a purchase, not as an admission of any wrongdoing.

 

[Triggaaar]

Needs to play them for it. But too many regional rules so need them sorting ahead of time. Do Red, White and Blues need hitting twice? Can you use the big ones? Are we playing drainsies? Are we playing for keepsies or quitsies?

I thought we were playing for keepsies, and now someone's mum has made a complaint.

 

[Triggaaar]

Nope, we haven’t finished looking at them yet.

Congratulations, you have physically harmed a fellow Brighton fan.

This being on the basis that I've got bruised ribs, and laughing is very painful.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

A resounding NO from me . It was noted earlier in the thread that Elgin purchased them fair and square from the keepers at the time . It may be tough on the Greeks but , that’s life.
It would not stop there . Imagine the British Museum stripped of its Egyptian antiquities, its African historical items … We would not have a museum.
Possession is nine tenths of the law, they say. Hang on to what you have.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

When the Turks sold bits of the Parthenon frieze to Lord Elgin, it was one transaction amongst many of antiquities from all over the world. The frieze itself was never seen by the public, as it was on the inside of the the Parthenon ( Athena’s temple) and was basically a decoration which represented a parade of Athenian citizens.

i waffle on because it was never seen as a great treasure ( even Pausanias the Roman travel writer didn’t mention it in his journal of the treasures of the Hellenic world and he wrote a lot about the Parthenon.)

that said, it has become a symbol of Greece being stripped of its antiquities….there are far more important examples of Hellenic temples in museums around the world, that far outstrip the frieze.

personally I have no problem giving it back, BUT at what point do you stop? Do you strip out every museum in the world of its “ treasures” ? The Louvre and Berlin museums have as many antiquities as the BM, as does the ashmolean in Oxford and the new york museum of arts….even the fantastic National Museum in Naples has magnificent Roman bits and bobs from pompeii etc…BUT they have nationally important Hellenic pots and votive vases etc that should be returned if we are going down that route.

long winded reply but this is not just about the Nasty f***ing english stripping the world of its treasures

My instinct is no.
To paraphrase a Brazilian mate of mine, talking about his own nation....
Greece is a fuckabout country full of fuckabout people.
f*** 'em.

 

[Giraffe]

Yes they’re boring. I still remember the moment when I realised they weren’t actual marbles.

 

[Commander]

Yes they’re boring. I still remember the moment when I realised they weren’t actual marbles.

That moment for me is now.

 

[North of Robertsbridge]

As a member of the British Museum and lover of Greece, I would probably say yes, but where do you stop? I’m currently studying hieroglyphs there and would be sad not to spend time looking at the Rosetta Stone and other Egyptian artifacts each week

 

[Bedsex]

 

[essbee1]

As a member of the British Museum and lover of Greece, I would probably say yes, but where do you stop? I’m currently studying hieroglyphs there and would be sad not to spend time looking at the Rosetta Stone and other Egyptian artifacts each week

I once saw a load of old hieroglyphys. They were all just greek to me.

 

[North of Robertsbridge]

I once saw a load of old hieroglyphys. They were all just greek to me.

You probably already know, but that’s the importance of the Rosetta Stone displayed at the BM. It contains the same text in hieroglypshs, demotic (cursive) script and Greek. This led to JF Champollion deciphering hieroglyphs for the first time in 1822. An amazing object and one that Egypt has been asking to have returned for over 20 years. A key question is whether it would be safer in the new Egyptian Museum in Cairo or in London, at risk of Russian nukes

If you’d like to learn to read some hieroglyphs (and have an iPhone), I wrote a free app this week, Glyph Quiz

 

[Stato]

No. We should give back the Parthenon Marbles. They shouldn't be named after some bloke, just because he lifted them from their home of a couple of millenia; Especially when his name is some crap made up by his ancestor's mates to ingrain class privilege.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

No, but we could make them some nice plaster casts.

 

[A1X]

Needs to play them for it. But too many regional rules so need them sorting ahead of time. Do Red, White and Blues need hitting twice? Can you use the big ones? Are we playing drainsies? Are we playing for keepsies or quitsies? Don't think we should allow steelies.

We need a modern equivalent to the Ashes, play them every four years home and away, winner takes them home until next time