[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Simster]

What are people's view on Cyprus? An illegal occupation by Turkey had been going on since the 70s. There is no resolution, just an uneasy acceptance which is not internationally recognised and seems wholly unsatisfactory to those Cypriots that lost their home and land.

At least there's no constant bloodshed with that one. Like the middle east, it feels to me as if western powers have treated the Turks harshly there. The fact that northern Cyprus isn't recognised seems to ignore the fact that the Turks only went in to defend their people, and the fact that they went as far south as Nicosia to secure their safety seemed a good excuse for the west to frame it as Turkish aggression when it started off as nothing of the sort.

To me any solution there is going to need to be along the lines of a Northern Ireland style power-sharing agreement.

 

[beorhthelm]

What are people's view on Cyprus? An illegal occupation by Turkey had been going on since the 70s. There is no resolution, just an uneasy acceptance which is not internationally recognised and seems wholly unsatisfactory to those Cypriots that lost their home and land.

there's also a lack of airstrikes or raids from either side. given the popularity for holidays, reckon majority opinion is "meh", if they are even aware of the details of partition.

 

[nicko31]

I don't disagree and have said similar on other posts.

I was just challenging the statement "Israel is the only westernised, democratic country in the Middle East". Israel is not fully Westernised and there are other democracies. Israel's democracy has provided absolutely no stability either.

Israel is classified in the Economist Index as a "Flawed Democracy" as is the USA, Greece and Hungary.

 

[Giraffe]

At least there's no constant bloodshed with that one. Like the middle east, it feels to me as if western powers have treated the Turks harshly there. The fact that northern Cyprus isn't recognised seems to ignore the fact that the Turks only went in to defend their people, and the fact that they went as far south as Nicosia to secure their safety seemed a good excuse for the west to frame it as Turkish aggression when it started off as nothing of the sort.

To me any solution there is going to need to be along the lines of a Northern Ireland style power-sharing agreement.

I should declare I have some interest on this (wife is half Cypriot) so was interested in people's view. I have met a lot of her family who were around at the time, including one who lost their house. THey occasionally go back, visit the house, talk to the occupiers and bizarrely do maintenance on it as they still believe they will get it back one day. Quite sad. It feels like there is a bit of a split with the feelings in Cypriot now. The older generation, still scarred by it, want it back, the younger is more pragmatic having not suffered it and can see the only way is to accept it. I guess that's the same with most things.

 

[Yes Chef]

Looking for some NSC insight please.

I have flights to Beirut booked in the new year, and the UK government has recently changed the travel advisory to 'all but essential travel'.

I'm a seasoned traveller, and have been to supposedly sketchy places before, but should I cancel my booking or wait a little longer to see if Lebanon becomes (further) embroiled? My instinct is to cancel, but wanted another perspective.

Apologies for the facile nature of this post, no offence meant, this seemed like the best place to ask.

 

[AK74]

Israel is classified in the Economist Index as a "Flawed Democracy" as is the USA, Greece and Hungary.

To be clear, the list of 'flawed democracies' is much longer than the four nations quoted.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Looking for some NSC insight please.

I have flights to Beirut booked in the new year, and the UK government has recently changed the travel advisory to 'all but essential travel'.

I'm a seasoned traveller, and have been to supposedly sketchy places before, but should I cancel my booking or wait a little longer to see if Lebanon becomes (further) embroiled? My instinct is to cancel, but wanted another perspective.

Apologies for the facile nature of this post, no offence meant, this seemed like the best place to ask.

I wouldn't go - unless I had a very pressing reason for going at that particular time.

 

[AK74]

Looking for some NSC insight please.

I have flights to Beirut booked in the new year, and the UK government has recently changed the travel advisory to 'all but essential travel'.

I'm a seasoned traveller, and have been to supposedly sketchy places before, but should I cancel my booking or wait a little longer to see if Lebanon becomes (further) embroiled? My instinct is to cancel, but wanted another perspective.

Apologies for the facile nature of this post, no offence meant, this seemed like the best place to ask.

I've been to some similarly sketchy places, too. This includes Beirut, but at a time when tensions and regional hostilities were lower than they are currently. I would not be traveling there at the moment.

I stayed at the Hilton. When the desk staff saw me walking out of the door to stretch my legs, one of them rushed forth and offered to accompany me in case I got into trouble. I'll never forget his kindness and compassion.

 

[nicko31]

To be clear, the list of 'flawed democracies' is much longer than the four nations quoted.

Correct and Israel has been improving in the last few years, though their recent attacks on the judiciary is going to send them into reverse.

 

[borat]

I don't disagree and have said similar on other posts.

I was just challenging the statement "Israel is the only westernised, democratic country in the Middle East". Israel is not fully Westernised and there are other democracies. Israel's democracy has provided absolutely no stability either.

To add to your points -

Israel as a democracy is disputed.

Israel hasn’t been a democracy for a long time. Now, Israelis need to face this fact | Joshua Leifer

The protest movement will either transform into a call for genuine democracy – for Palestinians and Israelis alike – or it will remain locked in the current impasse

www.theguardian.com

Israeli Jews and Non Jewish Israelis are treated differently by law

The Law of Return and Absentees’ Property Law are but two examples of discrimination in the Israeli legal system

Theres a whole database of laws that work against non-israeli Jews. https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

 

[nicko31]

Looking for some NSC insight please.

I have flights to Beirut booked in the new year, and the UK government has recently changed the travel advisory to 'all but essential travel'.

I'm a seasoned traveller, and have been to supposedly sketchy places before, but should I cancel my booking or wait a little longer to see if Lebanon becomes (further) embroiled? My instinct is to cancel, but wanted another perspective.

Apologies for the facile nature of this post, no offence meant, this seemed like the best place to ask.

The problem is if you ignore advice you might not get any help if you're in the shit. Been to a few dicey places in past where there has been advisory but not into the "all but essential travel cat".

 

[Hamilton]

I fear the Israeli government are about to make a massive error of judgement.

I fail to see how the persecution of all Palestinians in Gaza is proportionate as a response, nor how it will lead to anything other than an escalation in violence. This is only going to bring in other players like Lebanon and Syria in tensions rise. Israel would still win, but at what geopolitical cost?

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

I fear the Israeli government are about to make a massive error of judgement.

I fail to see how the persecution of all Palestinians in Gaza is proportionate as a response, nor how it will lead to anything other than an escalation in violence. This is only going to bring in other players like Lebanon and Syria in tensions rise. Israel would still win, but at what geopolitical cost?

Israel calling for all non combatants to leave the Gaza strip, ok then what happens...
They flatten it, unfit for human habitation, then what, they send in the military to police and clear the areas.
Is it safe for the people to move back now, errrr yes....
But not you lot, we will let Israeli folk build new homes there though....

I am guessing obviously, but it is a good one.

 

[SeagullinExile]

Israel calling for all non combatants to leave the Gaza strip, ok then what happens...
They flatten it, unfit for human habitation, then what, they send in the military to police and clear the areas.
Is it safe for the people to move back now, errrr yes....
But not you lot, we will let Israeli folk build new homes there though....

I am guessing obviously, but it is a good one.

My take too. Israel will force the population into Egypt, and never let them return.

It’s basically ethnic cleansing.

 

[sparkie]

I fear the Israeli government are about to make a massive error of judgement.

I fail to see how the persecution of all Palestinians in Gaza is proportionate as a response, nor how it will lead to anything other than an escalation in violence. This is only going to bring in other players like Lebanon and Syria in tensions rise. Israel would still win, but at what geopolitical cost?

I fear that too.

One evil by Hamas last week.

Potentially a new evil by Israel to come very soon.

 

[1066familyman]

There are a lot of complexities in this and on face value it might seem that Israel is anti Ethiopian but in reality they have conducted a number of airlifts to take many thousands of them back to Israel....

They have indeed. From Sudan being a case in point.

The point is not Israel being 'anti Ethiopian', but to highlight that they are issues around race and ethnicity in Judaism and with the state of Israel. As there are with many nations around the world may I add.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What are people's view on Cyprus? An illegal occupation by Turkey had been going on since the 70s. There is no resolution, just an uneasy acceptance which is not internationally recognised and seems wholly unsatisfactory to those Cypriots that lost their home and land.

A pal of mine is Turkish Cypriot and has a family home in the turkish republic (TRNC). As long as Greece and Turkey avoid using the place for a proxy war, it should retain the 'uneasy' stability. To fly to TRNC you have to go via Istambul, which is a bit of a pain, but not the end of the world.

I think it works because one side isn't trying to create illegal settlements on the land of the other side, and that other side isn't taking random pot shots across the border, leading to occasional major incursions and atrocities. Oh, and one side isn't being underwritten by America while the other is backed by nations hostile to the first, nations that surround the first on all sides.

Apart from that, the situations are identical.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Israel calling for all non combatants to leave the Gaza strip, ok then what happens...
They flatten it, unfit for human habitation, then what, they send in the military to police and clear the areas.
Is it safe for the people to move back now, errrr yes....
But not you lot, we will let Israeli folk build new homes there though....

I am guessing obviously, but it is a good one.

Bibi is mad enough to send the troops in to flatten north Gaza, but I don't see settlements there. The plan is to kill 'terrorists' and dismantle the war infrastructure. This amounts to creating a horrible mess and killing large numbers of civilians who have traditionally been used as a human shield by Hamas.

In other words, it will be days of extreme smiting followed by abandonment of a complete and utter mess, piles of bodies, etc.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

My take too. Israel will force the population into Egypt, and never let them return.

It’s basically ethnic cleansing.

I cannot understand why they are embracing a right wing ideology and stance on persecution.
Religious bigotry should be a thing of the past, in fact I would have thought as a humans we should have moved on from religion altogether as an excuse for personal bigotry and ignorance.

 

[Si Gull]

I fear that too.

One evil by Hamas last week.

Potentially a new evil by Israel to come very soon.

Responding to violence with more violence has, historically, rarely ended well. Will the human race ever learn?

Governments speak of a 'proportional response' as if that's a given. There has to be a diplomatic way to end these disputes. People have to be prepared to compromise. It'll never be perfect, see Ireland, and Cyprus/Turkey, but if it avoids shedding the blood of, largely, innocent people, then it has to be a better option.