[Travel] Mick lynch

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

He's on Politics Live now - he avoided the question of what figure would be acceptable and stated that Driver Only Operation has always been and will always be unacceptable to the RMT. Wants the rail operators to compromise but is not going to compromise on that as the RMT has held that view for 40 years apparently.

Is Thameslink DOO ?

 

[Uh_huh_him]

He's on Politics Live now - he avoided the question of what figure would be acceptable and stated that Driver Only Operation has always been and will always be unacceptable to the RMT. Wants the rail operators to compromise but is not going to compromise on that as the RMT has held that view for 40 years apparently.

The argument is that the train operating companies weren't pushing for Driver only, but had that inserted into the latest deal by the government.

Not sure how many customers are screaming out for Driver only trains.
I'm certainly not. I don't consider it to be an essential part of a modern rail network.

On the whole I would like there to be at least 1 other member of staff on the majority of train journeys,
Sure some routes that only have a handful of stops may not need them, but any train travelling over 2 hrs probably needs more than 1 member of staff onboard.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Is Thameslink DOO ?

I think many services travel for periods without guards, but have often see guards join the services en route

 

[beorhthelm]

Is Thameslink DOO ?

yes, along with Southern, Southeastern, Northern, Scottish services and some others. careful though, there's also a DCO classification, which is DOO with a second staff on the train not involved in the train dispatch.

DOO may be unacceptable to RMT, right up until they give in. it was interesting how they claimed this is a new issue brought up last week, then had 3 films out against DOO the day after. its always and continuously an issue in rail disputes.

 

[Wardy's twin]

One of the big problem with our echo chamber world, is the assumption that everyone is as well/badly informed as you are.

I would guess that GMB audience offered a decent opportunity to land his core message to people who were not fully aware of the true facts behind this strike.

In essence nothing has changed other than the medium of delivery , previous to social media it was the printed press and news boards outside newsagents. Public speakers need to be guarded in what they say and how they will be reported. I recall reading a book at uni 45+ years ago called the 'selling of the president' in brief it tells how Nixon lost his first attempt at becoming resident because he looked shifty in his television interview (sweating and eye moving left and right) he had to learn the lesson the camera is always there. Personally what I have seen of Mick lynch is that is usually a great communicator but he is having to fight the media covering his communications so that they can be fairly reported.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

yes, along with Southern, Southeastern, Northern, Scottish services and some others. careful though, there's also a DCO classification, which is DOO with a second staff on the train not involved in the train dispatch.

DOO may be unacceptable to RMT, right up until they give in. it was interesting how they claimed this is a new issue brought up last week, then had 3 films out against DOO the day after. its always and continuously an issue in rail disputes.

I assume because it has always been an issue and they know their opponent's methodology pretty well by now, they were prepared for the eventuality.

The fact of the matter is that the government are trying to bundle in sweeping t&c changes for a 5% pay rise.
That probably would have been acceptable when RPI was 3%, but now it's a piss-take.

I'm sure if they said - right all we are going to offer you is a 5% payrise for the next 2 years, with no changes to terms the members would sign off on it.
Then set up separate discussions with the Union around t&c reform.

The items should be separate, IMO.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The argument is that the train operating companies weren't pushing for Driver only, but had that inserted into the latest deal by the government.

Not sure how many customers are screaming out for Driver only trains.
I'm certainly not. I don't consider it to be an essential part of a modern rail network.

On the whole I would like there to be at least 1 other member of staff on the majority of train journeys,
Sure some routes that only have a handful of stops may not need them, but any train travelling over 2 hrs probably needs more than 1 member of staff onboard.

As a woman I would want a guard or another worker on any train I travel on, and know of many women who feel the same way.

 

[beorhthelm]

I assume because it has always been an issue and they know their opponent's methodology pretty well by now, they were prepared for the eventuality.

The fact of the matter is that the government are trying to bundle in sweeping t&c changes for a 5% pay rise.
That probably would have been acceptable when RPI was 3%, but now it's a piss-take.

I'm sure if they said - right all we are going to offer you is a 5% payrise for the next 2 years, with no changes to terms the members would sign off on it.
Then set up separate discussions with the Union around t&c reform.

The items should be separate, IMO.

maybe they should be seperate. would the unions discuss those changes seperately? on face value Network Rail and TOC say the changes allow finance to more pay. theres a budget set after all, so more pay here means less something elsewhere.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

As a woman I would want a guard or another worker on any train I travel on, and know of many women who feel the same way.

Absolutely.


Keep seeing plenty of gammons on twitter exclaiming that DOO is modernising the railway,
What actual benefit is it supposed to be?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Absolutely.


Keep seeing plenty of gammons on twitter exclaiming that DOO is modernising the railway,
What actual benefit is it supposed to be?

There are many bots on twitter, pumping out the party line. I check the date, and followers, then block.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

maybe they should be seperate. would the unions discuss those changes seperately? on face value Network Rail and TOC say the changes allow finance to more pay. theres a budget set after all, so more pay here means less something elsewhere.

I'm sure the union would happily have separate talks on the matter.

The finances for the railways is very murky indeed, neither wholly public or private.
It's probably why negotiations are always so challenging.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

maybe they should be seperate. would the unions discuss those changes seperately? on face value Network Rail and TOC say the changes allow finance to more pay. theres a budget set after all, so more pay here means less something elsewhere.

Both the RMT and the Postal workers are facing exactly the same problems with modest wage rises offered but conditionally on accepting the Terms and Conditions. Listen to the CWU tell you about theirs. It includes Fire and Rehire.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Here's what led up to that tho, as reported by The Independent

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Asked to put a figure on the financial “sacrifice” he has said his workers have suffered, he said: “That depends on what shifts they were working, what rate of pay they are they earn and how many occasions they have to go out.”

He added: “What I do find annoying though, Mishal, is that you put these lines that are directly taken from the propaganda of the other side. You never show any admiration for the fight that working people are putting up in this country for the rebalancing of our society.

So basically the journalist was trying to wheedle a marquee headline financial figure out of Mick Lynch that would have subsequently been used to belittle the union's stance all over the media. Instead he went on the front foot and got a further point across to boot

He did answer the question, but in one clip I've heard, they cut off his reply, which was a reasonable response of "it will depend on the members role/shift pattern etc" .
But apparently the Sun know that figure is £5000. They seem to think this shows what an evil POS Lynch is. It really isn't. His members are fully aware they will lose out financially when voting to strike.
Which is why he queried the presenter on why they felt it was the most important piece to follow up on.

The Today programme should be more interested in the paths to resolution, not how much RMT members are prepared to lose to this action.
It really is a trivial stat in this issue,

The point of balance is not to ask "balanced" questions or give the interviewee an easy ride. It's to be equally as tough to everyone. That means putting the right wing press accusations to Lynch when talking to him and putting allegations of, let's say incompetence and corruption, to a Tory minister or PM. It means the same journalist can ask, for example, questions to a Lib Dem about why they want to revoke Brexit in a potentially undemocratic way and then tackle Johnson or Farage about why Brexit has not been a resounding success. Balance is never achieved by giving the Unions an easy time.

I listened to that interview yesterday too. It was the first time I thought that he actually didn't answer the question - the latest ballot by members showed a significant fall in support for strike action.

Mishal Husain is a fantastic journalist - and for Mick Lynch to say that she was parroting the right wing press was very poor.

Exactly. Great post.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

The point of balance is not to ask "balanced" questions or give the interviewee an easy ride. It's to be equally as tough to everyone. That means putting the right wing press accusations to Lynch when talking to him and putting allegations of, let's say incompetence and corruption, to a Tory minister or PM. It means the same journalist can ask, for example, questions to a Lib Dem about why they want to revoke Brexit in a potentially undemocratic way and then tackle Johnson or Farage about why Brexit has not been a resounding success. Balance is never achieved by giving the Unions an easy time.


Exactly. Great post.

The point is that he did answer the question.
It will depend on the rate of pay, the shift pattern and the number of days taken off for strikers.
Having answered the question the presenter continued to push for a precise number.
There is no purpose to calculating an "average amount" of impact, because it will vary from member to member.
Every striking member voted to strike and was aware they would lose pay for doing so.

He asked repeatedly what purpose is there to the question? He was right, absolutely pointless line of questioning.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The point is that he did answer the question.
It will depend on the rate of pay, the shift pattern and the number of days taken off for strikers.
Having answered the question the presenter continued to push for a precise number.
There is no purpose to calculating an "average amount" of impact, because it will vary from member to member.
Every striking member voted to strike and was aware they would lose pay for doing so.

He asked repeatedly what purpose is there to the question? He was right, absolutely pointless line of questioning.

No, it’s a way of weaselling out of the question. You can take a median or give a total within those parameters

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Absolutely.


Keep seeing plenty of gammons on twitter exclaiming that DOO is modernising the railway,
What actual benefit is it supposed to be?

It's cheaper and needs fewer staff.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Absolutely.


Keep seeing plenty of gammons on twitter exclaiming that DOO is modernising the railway,
What actual benefit is it supposed to be?

One point that never seems to be asked PROPERLY is the customer view i.e. what do they want from a rail service that they use and pay for (yes i know its subsidised as well). Clearly there won't be a single answer but i guess the monstrosity HS2 would be low on list compared to better east/west links across the north , trains running on time generally, a simpler ticketing process and cheaper rail tickets.

 

[maresfield seagull]

its a cost saving
Not sure what else
in reply to uh huh him #249

seems I ain’t Sussed the quote button yet

 

[Springal]

Absolutely.


Keep seeing plenty of gammons on twitter exclaiming that DOO is modernising the railway,
What actual benefit is it supposed to be?

Trains don’t get delayed / cancelled due to staff sickness / staff missing connecting trains / staff going AWOL.

 

[Blue3]

Just saw Mick Lynch interview on GMB, a deeply impressive person sorting out his members needs and talking with a great deal of common sense. What's everyone elses thoughts on him?

Mick Lynch is an outstanding trade unionist, unflappability in front of an aggressive press and political class who have all backed off in recent weeks for fear of being found wanting by Mick Lynch