[Football] Man U v Atalanta CL

[Brighton & Love]

Always nice to see the teams below us getting a win in Europe. Good on them.

 

[martin tyler]

Papers over the fact he is tactically out of his depth. Being rescued by individual quality. Clueless in midfield and defensively suspect and have been for a while.

 

[Stat Brother]

Papers over the fact he is tactically out of his depth. Being rescued by individual quality. Clueless in midfield and defensively suspect and have been for a while.

It's amazing what you can get out of a squad that was amassed for as little as £926,000,000.

 

[vegster]

Papers over the fact he is tactically out of his depth. Being rescued by individual quality. Clueless in midfield and defensively suspect and have been for a while.

Indeed this.

They are currently relying on big name players to keep digging the team out of a hole.. Ole really has no clue.

 

[Swansman]

Papers over the fact he is tactically out of his depth. Being rescued by individual quality. Clueless in midfield and defensively suspect and have been for a while.

Indeed this.

They are currently relying on big name players to keep digging the team out of a hole.. Ole really has no clue.

They played well, dominated the game AND won it... what would Ole have to do to not be "out of his depth"?

 

[martin tyler]

They played well, dominated the game AND won it... what would Ole have to do to not be "out of his depth"?

Personally looks clear that tactically United are pretty woeful and Ole is relying on individuals to produce some
Brilliance rather than a team performance. You say they dominated but they were cut through very easily at times last night. Easy at the moment to play through there midfield and get at the back 4 which at the moment creeks under pressure. This is a side that has been put together at a mere 900 million personally I would expect more he’s been there a while now but they still lack any identity week to week.
Like or dislike them Klopp, guardiola, Tuchel, would have had them playing a certain way by now with players seemingly know what everyone else is doing.

 

[vegster]

They played well, dominated the game AND won it... what would Ole have to do to not be "out of his depth"?

If you can't see that he is struggling tactically then there is no way I can explain it to you. Many United fans have had enough already and they want him out as there is no consistency in their results, they don't buy season tickets to see their team go 0-2 down at home. This is usually a very good barometer of the fans views...https://www.redcafe.net/

 

[Lower West Stander]

If you can't see that he is struggling tactically then there is no way I can explain it to you. Many United fans have had enough already and they want him out as there is no consistency in their results, they don't buy season tickets to see their team go 0-2 down at home. This is usually a very good barometer of the fans views...https://www.redcafe.net/

I think the views are pretty balanced. I spend a lot of my time in Manchester and the mood music is pretty split. Broadly speaking though - I think the majority want him to stay. Far too sweeping to say the fans have had enough in my view.

That’s not to say he should stay of course but this forum also had its fair share of posters who wanted Potter to go last year.

Say what you like about him but that was a bloody good comeback last night - regardless of how it was achieved.


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[Swansman]

If you can't see that he is struggling tactically then there is no way I can explain it to you. Many United fans have had enough already and they want him out as there is no consistency in their results, they don't buy season tickets to see their team go 0-2 down at home. This is usually a very good barometer of the fans views...https://www.redcafe.net/

Fans views are usually a very bad barometer to decide whether a manager is "struggling tactically" or not. Football fans know jack shit about football.

I believe you 100% when you say that there is no way you can explain why how/why you think he is struggling tactically.

They have achieved good results under Ole and mostly played a good, attacking football. If they cant take the team going down 0-2 at home without sacking the manager, Ferguson would have been sacked every single season. Selective memory might say that United used to win every single game. It was never the case.

 

[dazzer6666]

They played well, dominated the game AND won it... what would Ole have to do to not be "out of his depth"?

Did you watch any of the Leicester game at the weekend ? Virtually every pundit and reporter was at a loss to explain the tactics he deployed. It was the same last night - it’s basically ‘have 4 superstars up front and hope they score enough’.

Couple of extracts from a sample report (written by someone who hopefully knows far more than I do)

If the over-riding feeling was, yet again, that United are a team crammed with outstanding individuals who they overly depend upon, that they lack a discernable style of play and look under-coached and vulnerable, does that appear churlish after a wonderful evening when the atmosphere crackled inside Old Trafford and the fans went away happy? Whatever the analysis, it was a great game. It certainly was not boring.

Jurgen Klopp will have watched this game and seen how vulnerable United are. He will also have seen how they can turn to substitutes such as Paul Pogba, who had been dropped, Edinson Cavani and Jadon Sancho - richly-assembled cavalry - but he will expect that Liverpool will not fold the way Atalanta did, even if United were indebted to David De Gea for a fine double save when the score was still 1-2.

It was a shocking first 45 minutes. It appeared United did not have any kind of formation - at times it was 4-2-4 with Bruno Fernandes playing his own game - while the two goals they conceded were the result of awful defending. Solskjaer bizarrely claimed United played well in the first half and talked about “DNA”, but goodness knows what the core structure is.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Savage: "Two words. Viva Ronaldo, Goodnight"

You can sum that up in one word.

Magic darts.

 

[Swansman]

Did you watch any of the Leicester game at the weekend ? Virtually every pundit and reporter was at a loss to explain the tactics he deployed. It was the same last night - it’s basically ‘have 4 superstars up front and hope they score enough’.

Couple of extracts from a sample report (written by someone who hopefully knows far more than I do)

If the over-riding feeling was, yet again, that United are a team crammed with outstanding individuals who they overly depend upon, that they lack a discernable style of play and look under-coached and vulnerable, does that appear churlish after a wonderful evening when the atmosphere crackled inside Old Trafford and the fans went away happy? Whatever the analysis, it was a great game. It certainly was not boring.

Jurgen Klopp will have watched this game and seen how vulnerable United are. He will also have seen how they can turn to substitutes such as Paul Pogba, who had been dropped, Edinson Cavani and Jadon Sancho - richly-assembled cavalry - but he will expect that Liverpool will not fold the way Atalanta did, even if United were indebted to David De Gea for a fine double save when the score was still 1-2.

It was a shocking first 45 minutes. It appeared United did not have any kind of formation - at times it was 4-2-4 with Bruno Fernandes playing his own game - while the two goals they conceded were the result of awful defending. Solskjaer bizarrely claimed United played well in the first half and talked about “DNA”, but goodness knows what the core structure is.

Nope, I didnt see the Leicester game. Seen a lot of others though, like the one yesterday. When Liverpool turned 0-2 to 3-2 against Atletico a couple of days ago it was because Klopp is a genius, when Oles team does it its because of "individual quality"... as if there is no individual quality in Liverpool and as if there are no tactics to bring something out of the individual quality in United.

While they might not be as obvious in their play style as Liverpool or City, there is no way Ole just send them out and tell them good luck. You dont end up second in the PL with 74 points that way in 2021.

What peoples judgements come down to isnt tactical ability but some kind of cult of personality. Ole is a dull German, looks like someones grandma and doesnt say cool thing, so he cant be a good manager. Kloop is a cool German, wears a cap just like every cool dude and says cool, funny things, so he must be a genius. Football fans in general knows very little about tactics and pundits not a lot more. You know why Alan Shearer, Graeme Souness and Gary Neville are working in media rather than in football? Because despite all their opinions and big words on this and that, no one would repeat the mistake to hire them after being shite in Newcastle x2 and Valencia. Talk is easy, football is difficult.

 

[martin tyler]

Fans views are usually a very bad barometer to decide whether a manager is "struggling tactically" or not. Football fans know jack shit about football.

I believe you 100% when you say that there is no way you can explain why how/why you think he is struggling tactically.

They have achieved good results under Ole and mostly played a good, attacking football. If they cant take the team going down 0-2 at home without sacking the manager, Ferguson would have been sacked every single season. Selective memory might say that United used to win every single game. It was never the case.

They struggle as they are to easy to play through. Tactically that is where he is wrong. He may turn it around he clearly tried to identify it last night by starting 2 more holding midfielders. However they were still over ran in there as he still initially could not find the right balance.
In the league I think they have conceded 10 joint 2nd worst of the top 10. This is with a defender which cost around 220 million plus the keeper to put together.
Personally despite some
Individual errors at time it’s mainly because the midfield is often asked to do to much or he can’t motivate players like Fernandes Pogba ect to do the hard yards in the game in terms of tracking runners.
They don’t press as a unit either front 3/4 press alone. Slide it past them often there is 10/15 yards of space to turn and move into. Rewatch them last night and again against Leicester at the weekend. Rewind watch them against Club Brugge opening CL night ect. The same issue resurfaces time and again.
His point record actually isn’t awful. He is on par with Klopp at this stage of there managerial times with their respective clubs.
However Klopp then cranked up the points average and went on CL runs to 2 finals. All because he built a team drilled them to death and every single one knows what they are doing.
Could be wrong but at the moment I can’t see United doing that, despite the massive backing he has had. He has players on the bench that would walk into most teams in Europe.

 

[Husty]

Ole is a dull German, looks like someones grandma and doesnt say cool thing, so he cant be a good manager. Kloop is a cool German, wears a cap just like every cool dude and says cool, funny things, so he must be a genius. Football fans in general knows very little about tactics and pundits not a lot more.

Solskjær was born in Kristiansund, Møre og Romsdal to Øyvind, a Greco-Roman wrestling champion, and Brita Solskjær.

Not just the on-the-pitch antics some football 'fans' don't know a lot about eh Swanny?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Nope, I didnt see the Leicester game. Seen a lot of others though, like the one yesterday. When Liverpool turned 0-2 to 3-2 against Atletico a couple of days ago it was because Klopp is a genius, when Oles team does it its because of "individual quality"... as if there is no individual quality in Liverpool and as if there are no tactics to bring something out of the individual quality in United.

While they might not be as obvious in their play style as Liverpool or City, there is no way Ole just send them out and tell them good luck. You dont end up second in the PL with 74 points that way in 2021.

What peoples judgements come down to isnt tactical ability but some kind of cult of personality. Ole is a dull German, looks like someones grandma and doesnt say cool thing, so he cant be a good manager. Kloop is a cool German, wears a cap just like every cool dude and says cool, funny things, so he must be a genius. Football fans in general knows very little about tactics and pundits not a lot more. You know why Alan Shearer, Graeme Souness and Gary Neville are working in media rather than in football? Because despite all their opinions and big words on this and that, no one would repeat the mistake to hire them after being shite in Newcastle x2 and Valencia. Talk is easy, football is difficult.

I actually think you're right. Or at least that it's possible that you are. That the whole "Ole has no idea what he's doing" narrative that has developed is easier to apply as he is an ex player of the club, he wasn't highly sought after before he went there and is not overly charismatic.

The jury is still out for me. But if they're not seriously competing for the title this season with that squad then he can have no complaints at all if he gets the boot and can't find another job in management until the Faroe Islands decide they need to go in a new direction.

 

[herecomesaregular]

Must say I like Ole and his unpredictable United team. They're very watchable (and after all, for a non United fan, watching as a neutral it's all about entertainment). Plus it makes betting on United more fun. Hope he stays and they are in the mix until the end of the season.

 

[Swansman]

They struggle as they are to easy to play through. Tactically that is where he is wrong. He may turn it around he clearly tried to identify it last night by starting 2 more holding midfielders. However they were still over ran in there as he still initially could not find the right balance.
In the league I think they have conceded 10 joint 2nd worst of the top 10. This is with a defender which cost around 220 million plus the keeper to put together.
Personally despite some
Individual errors at time it’s mainly because the midfield is often asked to do to much or he can’t motivate players like Fernandes Pogba ect to do the hard yards in the game in terms of tracking runners.
They don’t press as a unit either front 3/4 press alone. Slide it past them often there is 10/15 yards of space to turn and move into. Rewatch them last night and again against Leicester at the weekend. Rewind watch them against Club Brugge opening CL night ect. The same issue resurfaces time and again.
His point record actually isn’t awful. He is on par with Klopp at this stage of there managerial times with their respective clubs.
However Klopp then cranked up the points average and went on CL runs to 2 finals. All because he built a team drilled them to death and every single one knows what they are doing.
Could be wrong but at the moment I can’t see United doing that, despite the massive backing he has had. He has players on the bench that would walk into most teams in Europe.

They are indeed struggling defensively but is there any manager out there who will make Harry Maguire look like Virgil van Dijk or Ruben Dias, or Lindelöf-Nilsson like a top four player? Is there any manager that will suddenly make Luke Shaw outperform Robertson or Joao Cancelo? What magic will it take to make Obi-Wan Bissaka to outperform the top 4 equivalents? Varane is a good signing, but not adjusted yet.

And then I've not even mentioned Fred...

It matters little that they've spent £200+ on defenders - Thiago Silva came to Chelsea for free and would eat all of them.

Manchester United tried David Moyes and people thought he was tactically retarded so they sacked him and got similar outcome with Van Gaal and then similar outcome with Mourinho and then similar outcome with Solskjaer. At some point it stops being about every single manager on the planet being shite and coming down to other issues, such as recruitment. While its true Ole might not have found the right balance, it is also very difficult to find the right balance in a team that isnt built on balance.

The signing of Varane might indicate that they are heading in the right direction but its too early for him to have any real impact and they still lack defensively good midfielders. Whoever they put in charge, I doubt they are going to do any better than last seasons 2nd place.

 

[Swansman]

I actually think you're right. Or at least that it's possible that you are. That the whole "Ole has no idea what he's doing" narrative that has developed is easier to apply as he is an ex player of the club, he wasn't highly sought after before he went there and is not overly charismatic.

The jury is still out for me. But if they're not seriously competing for the title this season with that squad then he can have no complaints at all if he gets the boot and can't find another job in management until the Faroe Islands decide they need to go in a new direction.

They are not going to compete for the title, the main reason being that their squad isnt good enough. Its more expensive than good (compared to the other top teams).

 

[martin tyler]

They are indeed struggling defensively but is there any manager out there who will make Harry Maguire look like Virgil van Dijk or Ruben Dias, or Lindelöf-Nilsson like a top four player? Is there any manager that will suddenly make Luke Shaw outperform Robertson or Joao Cancelo? What magic will it take to make Obi-Wan Bissaka to outperform the top 4 equivalents? Varane is a good signing, but not adjusted yet.

And then I've not even mentioned Fred...

It matters little that they've spent £200+ on defenders - Thiago Silva came to Chelsea for free and would eat all of them.

Manchester United tried David Moyes and people thought he was tactically retarded so they sacked him and got similar outcome with Van Gaal and then similar outcome with Mourinho and then similar outcome with Solskjaer. At some point it stops being about every single manager on the planet being shite and coming down to other issues, such as recruitment. While its true Ole might not have found the right balance, it is also very difficult to find the right balance in a team that isnt built on balance.

The signing of Varane might indicate that they are heading in the right direction but its too early for him to have any real impact and they still lack defensively good midfielders. Whoever they put in charge, I doubt they are going to do any better than last seasons 2nd place.

It does matter to a point what you spend and how you recruit. I assume and it’s only an assumption he has some say in transfers. He may not. But someone somewhere has missed the massive hole in CM that is walked through game after game. I see he mentioned in the local papers about not signing a CM. Maybe as a club and him as a manager this should have been a priority over Sancho or ronaldo? Build a team maybe not individuals

Yes I do believe other managers would make them harder to beat or at least harder to get at.
You point to Silva - the defensive solidarity improved improved massively under Tuchel. Under Lampard they were not that tight. They lost 5 of the last 8 league games conceding 11. They have conceded 16 in 27 since and 5 of those oddly were v West Brom.
At least try and make yourself hard to get through. Leicester, Villa, Atalanta, Club Brugge, Villarreal, Everton, Southampton in all those games players found it so easy to work through the lines. I actually think they look better against teams that they can sit back and not leave space.
They don’t press as a unit the front players half heartedly press.
More often they appear not to have a coherent game plan.
He’s by no means doing a terrible job. Attacking wise they are good at times to watch but with that amount of talent they should be decent. Even you Swanny could get a tune from them.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Ole is a nice bloke and a reasonable manager but he shouldn't be anywhere near that Utd job. He simply hasn't paid his dues, Molde and Cardiff aren't a very good CV.

If you take any one of City's manager, Chelsea's manager or Liverpool's manager that Utd squad are winning the league. As it is They'll probably finish 4th.