[Albion] You Win Nothing With Kids (Except Maybe a £123m profit)

[Stato]

RDZ in his press conference last night said that we are about playing young players and that young players have to be given the chance to play and make their mistakes in order to improve. He took pains to point out that although Barco made a mistake for the third goal, he 'played a good game'. Yes there is an argument for saying that we were naive in trying to have kids play City at their own game and yes it always has the chance of blowing up in our face, but our manager has recently been maligned from some quarters for media statements that seem to not understand what we are and what he signed up to.

I'd suggest that his insistence that young players who come into the first team learn to play the way we want to play and not 'safety first' points to a very good understanding of the project. We find raw talent and we try to balance the club's progression with developing it. It's a big ask. There will be risk, there will be peaks and troughs and there will be times when one aim takes precedent over the other.

To this end I was interested to see how we compare to the rest of the league in terms of using youngsters this season, so took a look at appearances/minutes played by players 20 or under. There are mitigating factors to the results. The figures would obviously be different if we'd had better luck with injuries, but the practice of giving minutes to young prospects seems to precede RDZ's time at the club and has been referenced by TB & PB as part of the business model. The £100m+ made on Caicedo shows the potential pay off from the investment.

So far over the EPL's 2023/24 season we have fielded 8 players who are 20 or under: Baker Boaitey, Baleba, Barco, Buonanotte, Enciso, Ferguson, Hinshelwood and O'Mahony. Only Chelsea have matched this number. Sheffield United, Manchester United and Liverpool have all fielded 6.

In terms of appearances we are way out in front. U21s have played in 99 games for us. Man Utd are the next closest with 62, then Chelsea with 57. Both Fulham and Arsenal have played only one U21 year old in one match.

In minutes played we are also top with 4,893. Man Utd's 4,052 in second is mainly because of Garnacho and Mainoo who have played 3,674 of those minutes. We have three of the top ten U21s in terms of minutes played: Ferguson, Baleba and Buonanotte. Jack Hinshelwood would have made it four, but his season ending injury has left him currently twelfth on the list. It could be argued that he wouldn't have played as much if not for injuries to others, but given that one of the long term injured was Enciso, better luck with injuries probably wouldn't have affected the overall numbers. In 2022/23 when Enciso was fit we were still the only team with three players in the top ten.

In terms of goals scored by this age group we are also top. Ferguson, Buonanotte and Hinshelwood have 12 between them. Man Utd have 9. The league in total has 37. In 2022/23 we were also top, scoring 11 of the total 18 goals scored by U21s over the season. This, of course, included Julio's goal of the season.

If the doomsayers arguing that our injury ravaged season has marred RDZ's reputation as a genius are right, then maybe he'll be staying*. Of course this will mean occasional heavy defeats from naive performances in games where we are out-gunned, but it will also mean continued trust and opportunities to improve for the kids who will be the long term life blood of the organisation. If we can't keep him, I hope we will be looking for someone with the same approach.

Its a hard fact that like so many other English sides, we may never win a major trophy and a lot of EPL fans understandably wonder what they are getting out of staying in a league where ultimate glory is always for the chosen few. Thinking about a football club in terms of eras rather than seasons seems some protection against this melancholy. No plan is ever perfect, but ours seems to be doing a lot of things very well. The courage to pick kids and give them the license to play progressively regardless of short term risk may seem 'stupid' to Alan Smith https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/brighton-mancity-stupidity-premier-league-32674038, but if we don't fail, we don't learn and we don't progress. Or perhaps to paraphrase Shakespeare: 'A Sean Dyche team dies a thousand times before its relegation, but the valiant taste of it but once'.

* - I'd personally like this even more than someone buying Jarred Gillett a one way ticket back to Oz.

 

[KZNSeagull]

RDZ in his press conference last night said that we are about playing young players and that young players have to be given the chance to play and make their mistakes in order to improve. He took pains to point out that although Barco made a mistake for the third goal, he 'played a good game'. Yes there is an argument for saying that we were naive in trying to have kids play City at their own game and yes it always has the chance of blowing up in our face, but our manager has recently been maligned from some quarters for media statements that seem to not understand what we are and what he signed up to.

I'd suggest that his insistence that young players who come into the first team learn to play the way we want to play and not 'safety first' points to a very good understanding of the project. We find raw talent and we try to balance the club's progression with developing it. It's a big ask. There will be risk, there will be peaks and troughs and there will be times when one aim takes precedent over the other.

To this end I was interested to see how we compare to the rest of the league in terms of using youngsters this season, so took a look at appearances/minutes played by players 20 or under. There are mitigating factors to the results. The figures would obviously be different if we'd had better luck with injuries, but the practice of giving minutes to young prospects seems to precede RDZ's time at the club and has been referenced by TB & PB as part of the business model. The £100m+ made on Caicedo shows the potential pay off from the investment.

So far over the EPL's 2023/24 season we have fielded 8 players who are 20 or under: Baker Boaitey, Baleba, Barco, Buonanotte, Enciso, Ferguson, Hinshelwood and O'Mahony. Only Chelsea have matched this number. Sheffield United, Manchester United and Liverpool have all fielded 6.

In terms of appearances we are way out in front. U21s have played in 99 games for us. Man Utd are the next closest with 62, then Chelsea with 57. Both Fulham and Arsenal have played only one U21 year old in one match.

In minutes played we are also top with 4,893. Man Utd's 4,052 in second is mainly because of Garnacho and Mainoo who have played 3,674 of those minutes. We have three of the top ten U21s in terms of minutes played: Ferguson, Baleba and Buonanotte. Jack Hinshelwood would have made it four, but his season ending injury has left him currently twelfth on the list. It could be argued that he wouldn't have played as much if not for injuries to others, but given that one of the long term injured was Enciso, better luck with injuries probably wouldn't have affected the overall numbers. In 2022/23 when Enciso was fit we were still the only team with three players in the top ten.

In terms of goals scored by this age group we are also top. Ferguson, Buonanotte and Hinshelwood have 12 between them. Man Utd have 9. The league in total has 37. In 2022/23 we were also top, scoring 11 of the total 18 goals scored by U21s over the season. This, of course, included Julio's goal of the season.

If the doomsayers arguing that our injury ravaged season has marred RDZ's reputation as a genius are right, then maybe he'll be staying*. Of course this will mean occasional heavy defeats from naive performances in games where we are out-gunned, but it will also mean continued trust and opportunities for the kids who will be the long term life blood of the organisation to play and improve. If we can't keep him, I hope we will be looking for someone with the same approach.

Its a hard fact that like so many other English sides, we may never win a major trophy and a lot of EPL fans understandably wonder what they are getting out of staying in a league where ultimate glory is always for the chosen few. Thinking about a football club in terms of eras rather than seasons seems some protection against this melancholy. No plan is ever perfect, but ours seems to be doing a lot of things very well. The courage to pick kids and give them the license to play progressively regardless of short term risk may seem 'stupid' to Alan Smith https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/brighton-mancity-stupidity-premier-league-32674038, but if we don't fail, we don't learn and we don't progress. Or perhaps to paraphrase Shakespeare: 'A Sean Dyche team dies a thousand times before its relegation, but the valiant taste of it but once'.

* - I'd personally like this even more than someone buying Jarred Gillett a one way ticket back to Oz.

A fine and very interesting post.

 

[martin tyler]

Didn’t see Alan complaining when we did it v Arsenal a few weeks back

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

That the likes of Wigan, Swansea and Portsmouth have all won major domestic silverware during the Premier League era does mean it can be done, but it's looking less and less likely. Just looked at 2012's League Cup final, 2-2 at full time, Cardiff losing on penalties to Liverpool.

 

[Stato]

That the likes of Wigan, Swansea and Portsmouth have all won major domestic silverware during the Premier League era does mean it can be done, but it's looking less and less likely. Just looked at 2012's League Cup final, 2-2 at full time, Cardiff losing on penalties to Liverpool.

During the Premier League era, but not in the last decade. Mansour bought City in 2008 (the week we knocked them out of the league cup on penalties at Withdean). The grip of money has just got stronger and stronger ever since.

 

[MJsGhost]

RDZ in his press conference last night said that we are about playing young players and that young players have to be given the chance to play and make their mistakes in order to improve. He took pains to point out that although Barco made a mistake for the third goal, he 'played a good game'.

He went further than that even:

Head coach Roberto De Zerbi said: “We made mistakes, but we have to accept the mistakes, because for Valentin Barco it was the first game in the Premier League and he was the best player on the pitch for us.”​

Having players feel they can make mistakes without getting pilloried for them is hugely important for performance. Fearing the consequences of something going wrong makes it more likely that something will go wrong. They need confidence to attempt something difficult/risky for it to be more likely to work and that comes from psychological safety.

(which also means the manager will likely go overboard with praise to repair any negative effect of mistakes on a player's confidence)

Given the slating some of the players get on here, I really hope they don't read it (particularly the younger ones)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

RDZ in his press conference last night said that we are about playing young players and that young players have to be given the chance to play and make their mistakes in order to improve. He took pains to point out that although Barco made a mistake for the third goal, he 'played a good game'. Yes there is an argument for saying that we were naive in trying to have kids play City at their own game and yes it always has the chance of blowing up in our face, but our manager has recently been maligned from some quarters for media statements that seem to not understand what we are and what he signed up to.

I'd suggest that his insistence that young players who come into the first team learn to play the way we want to play and not 'safety first' points to a very good understanding of the project. We find raw talent and we try to balance the club's progression with developing it. It's a big ask. There will be risk, there will be peaks and troughs and there will be times when one aim takes precedent over the other.

To this end I was interested to see how we compare to the rest of the league in terms of using youngsters this season, so took a look at appearances/minutes played by players 20 or under. There are mitigating factors to the results. The figures would obviously be different if we'd had better luck with injuries, but the practice of giving minutes to young prospects seems to precede RDZ's time at the club and has been referenced by TB & PB as part of the business model. The £100m+ made on Caicedo shows the potential pay off from the investment.

So far over the EPL's 2023/24 season we have fielded 8 players who are 20 or under: Baker Boaitey, Baleba, Barco, Buonanotte, Enciso, Ferguson, Hinshelwood and O'Mahony. Only Chelsea have matched this number. Sheffield United, Manchester United and Liverpool have all fielded 6.

In terms of appearances we are way out in front. U21s have played in 99 games for us. Man Utd are the next closest with 62, then Chelsea with 57. Both Fulham and Arsenal have played only one U21 year old in one match.

In minutes played we are also top with 4,893. Man Utd's 4,052 in second is mainly because of Garnacho and Mainoo who have played 3,674 of those minutes. We have three of the top ten U21s in terms of minutes played: Ferguson, Baleba and Buonanotte. Jack Hinshelwood would have made it four, but his season ending injury has left him currently twelfth on the list. It could be argued that he wouldn't have played as much if not for injuries to others, but given that one of the long term injured was Enciso, better luck with injuries probably wouldn't have affected the overall numbers. In 2022/23 when Enciso was fit we were still the only team with three players in the top ten.

In terms of goals scored by this age group we are also top. Ferguson, Buonanotte and Hinshelwood have 12 between them. Man Utd have 9. The league in total has 37. In 2022/23 we were also top, scoring 11 of the total 18 goals scored by U21s over the season. This, of course, included Julio's goal of the season.

If the doomsayers arguing that our injury ravaged season has marred RDZ's reputation as a genius are right, then maybe he'll be staying*. Of course this will mean occasional heavy defeats from naive performances in games where we are out-gunned, but it will also mean continued trust and opportunities to improve for the kids who will be the long term life blood of the organisation. If we can't keep him, I hope we will be looking for someone with the same approach.

Its a hard fact that like so many other English sides, we may never win a major trophy and a lot of EPL fans understandably wonder what they are getting out of staying in a league where ultimate glory is always for the chosen few. Thinking about a football club in terms of eras rather than seasons seems some protection against this melancholy. No plan is ever perfect, but ours seems to be doing a lot of things very well. The courage to pick kids and give them the license to play progressively regardless of short term risk may seem 'stupid' to Alan Smith https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/brighton-mancity-stupidity-premier-league-32674038, but if we don't fail, we don't learn and we don't progress. Or perhaps to paraphrase Shakespeare: 'A Sean Dyche team dies a thousand times before its relegation, but the valiant taste of it but once'.

* - I'd personally like this even more than someone buying Jarred Gillett a one way ticket back to Oz.

Indeed. And RDZ's post match presser was on point.

(And RDZ's cheeriness suggests he has been told there will be signings in the summer. My guess is that he will embrace next season and then decide his future after that. If he fails next season it will be followed by a sideways move, probably back to Italy. I hope he stays longer).

 

[Hiheidi]

If we can't keep him, I hope we will be looking for someone with the same approach.

Villa face Fonseca's young Lille built to entertain

Paulo Fonseca will take a young Lille side to face Aston Villa in the Europa Conference League that is built to entertain.

www.bbc.com

If De Zerbi goes, Fonseca from Lille would be ideal..
Had to rebuild the Lille team after their best players were all sold for big profit
Has a young team / debuts young players
Lille operate on a tight budget
Wants his team to dominate / play with courage

A quote from the BBC article:
"To me the players don't have age, they have quality," says Fonseca, who also handed 16-year-old Ayyoub Bouaddi his debut this season. "Because here we don't have the possibility to buy very expensive players, we find a way to make the young players grow."

 

[maltaseagull]

Indeed. And RDZ's post match presser was on point.

(And RDZ's cheeriness suggests he has been told there will be signings in the summer. My guess is that he will embrace next season and then decide his future after that. If he fails next season it will be followed by a sideways move, probably back to Italy. I hope he stays longer).

He has transformed the way we play and has been really unlucky with a huge injury list including some key players. However, he has stubbornly failed to adapt to what he has got and tried to play the same way regardless of personnel.
I think morale is very low and cannot see another point this season. (Hope I am wrong)
But if he is backed with some key signings in the summer, I really look forward to next season with a belief we can really do well.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

He has transformed the way we play and has been really unlucky with a huge injury list including some key players. However, he has stubbornly failed to adapt to what he has got and tried to play the same way regardless of personnel.
I think morale is very low and cannot see another point this season. (Hope I am wrong)
But if he is backed with some key signings in the summer, I really look forward to next season with a belief we can really do well.

Among some of the fanbase, certainly. At the club itself? I don't see it

 

[WhingForPresident]

We really need to bring in a few players that are in their peak years (25-29) to take on the leadership roles in the squad and help the younger players develop.

The bitter Arsenal twats like Smith and Keown can do one. Listened to TalkSport last night and one of their fans phoned in saying they should get 'some kind of recognition' even if they don't win the title

 

[Farehamseagull]

He went further than that even:

Head coach Roberto De Zerbi said: “We made mistakes, but we have to accept the mistakes, because for Valentin Barco it was the first game in the Premier League and he was the best player on the pitch for us.”​

Having players feel they can make mistakes without getting pilloried for them is hugely important for performance. Fearing the consequences of something going wrong makes it more likely that something will go wrong. They need confidence to attempt something difficult/risky for it to be more likely to work and that comes from psychological safety.

(which also means the manager will likely go overboard with praise to repair any negative effect of mistakes on a player's confidence)

Given the slating some of the players get on here, I really hope they don't read it (particularly the younger ones)

View attachment 181348

Don’t worry. Unsurprisingly these incredibly talented, rich, fit young men would not give a shit about what’s written on an internet forum (they don’t even know what forum’s are) frequented by a bunch of mainly 40/50 plus men!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We really need to bring in a few players that are in their peak years (25-29) to take on the leadership roles in the squad and help the younger players develop.

The bitter Arsenal twats like Smith and Keown can do one. Listened to TalkSport last night and one of their fans phoned in saying they should get 'some kind of recognition' even if they don't win the title

What about 'chokers'?

 

[MJsGhost]

Among some of the fanbase, certainly. At the club itself? I don't see it

There's a whiff of something amiss I'd say. Confidence has dropped rather than morale being very low perhaps? (potato/tomato )

It would be hard for the club atmosphere not to take a bit of a knock really.

From the high of finishing 6th, starting well, topping the Europa group... to crashing out to Roma, then the FA Cup and a poor run of results in the league (the form table below is pretty grim reading). Add in the crippling injury list and I think it's perfectly reasonable to see a bit of a dip in atmophere/morale/confidence when it's hard to see what might change to turn things back around.

FWIW, I think RdZ's perceived funk is more down to a blow to his ego than him being distracted by other jobs or any falling out with Bloom over recruitment. Getting schooled by his mate at Roma in what would have been a very high profile tie back in Italy will have hurt. He'll be frustrated by the injury list as he knows things would be better with a fuller squad.

A summer to lick his wounds and get his mojo back, along with injuries clearing up and (hopefully) a couple of 1st team-ready signings arriving and all will be fine. The PSR fall-out should make the signings more affordable, so maybe we'll see more than a couple?

EDIT: 4th place in the form table should give everyone lacking in confidence for this weekend a boost

 

[WhingForPresident]

What about 'chokers'?

O'Hara and Cundy ripped the guy apart, gave me a much needed laugh on the way home It's utter nonsense but great entertainment at times.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Thread title makes no sense. Only the accountants (and yes, yes it is a figure of speech, no need to state the bleeding obvious re TB) will rejoice in a £123m profit if it means ripping the engine room out of the team. Only so often that trick can be repeated if the club wishes to retain its EPL status

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There's a whiff of something amiss I'd say. Confidence has dropped rather than morale being very low perhaps? (potato/tomato )

It would be hard for the club atmosphere not to take a bit of a knock really.

From the high of finishing 6th, starting well, topping the Europa group... to crashing out to Roma, then the FA Cup and a poor run of results in the league (the form table below is pretty grim reading). Add in the crippling injury list and I think it's perfectly reasonable to see a bit of a dip in atmophere/morale/confidence when it's hard to see what might change to turn things back around.

FWIW, I think RdZ's perceived funk is more down to a blow to his ego than him being distracted by other jobs or any falling out with Bloom over recruitment. Getting schooled by his mate at Roma in what would have been a very high profile tie back in Italy will have hurt. He'll be frustrated by the injury list as he knows things would be better with a fuller squad.

A summer to lick his wounds and get his mojo back, along with injuries clearing up and (hopefully) a couple of 1st team-ready signings arriving and all will be fine. The PSR fall-out should make the signings more affordable, so maybe we'll see more than a couple?


View attachment 181349

EDIT: 4th place in the form table should give everyone lacking in confidence for this weekend a boost

Are you saying you know that mojo is low or that you are confident that it's low? What I saw last night was resolute professionalism and commitment (I missed most of the first half) and a decent positive and proud manager in the post match interview.

It seems others saw lacklustre football, hangdog expressions at final whistle, and an ashen-faced supremo in the post match interview, looking like he'd just come back from an 18 hour first aid shift in a Gaza hospital.

I apparently lack empathy so I guess it's me that's failing to read the runes, vibes and the space between the lines....

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thread title makes no sense. Only the accountants (and yes, yes it is a figure of speech, no need to state the bleeding obvious re TB) will rejoice in a £123m profit if it means ripping the engine room out of the team. Only so often that trick can be repeated if the club wishes to retain its EPL status

I misread your penultimate word and for a moment thought we'd put in a bid for that emerging young Brazillian talent, Tarkus.

 

[MJsGhost]

Don’t worry. Unsurprisingly these incredibly talented, rich, fit young men would not give a shit about what’s written on an internet forum (they don’t even know what forum’s are) frequented by a bunch of mainly 40/50 plus men!

Leon Knight did

 

[Jim in the West]

He has transformed the way we play and has been really unlucky with a huge injury list including some key players. However, he has stubbornly failed to adapt to what he has got and tried to play the same way regardless of personnel.
I think morale is very low and cannot see another point this season. (Hope I am wrong)
But if he is backed with some key signings in the summer, I really look forward to next season with a belief we can really do well.

I think with RDZ, as with - say - Bazball in the cricket - there is only one way to play. The moment you start a “Plan B”, you undermine the philosophy. So, we all moan when Joe Root gets out reverse-sweeping in the 5th over of a test match, but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t try it again next match. Plan Bs just end up confusing the players.