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[Albion] You are the ref: Dale Stephens' challenge on Gaston Ramirez
- Thread starter Bozza
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #242
Today.
I find the Halsey stance interesting and very informative. A useful insight into the refereeing mindset and how Dean may have felt it was safest (for him) to show red because of the bad injury. But that takes no account of 1) the fact that even Gaston's leg was broken, it could be a freak occurrence and 2) the impact on a match of such huge importance of what is then effectively just a 'guess'. I'm surprised refs feel that's acceptable.
They surely MUST stick to giving decisions based only on what they've seen of the challenge. It's the only way fans can trust them. I think most people appreciate it's a hugely difficult job and will grudgingly accept it when a ref says "I can only give what I have seen", even if that's later shown to be wrong.
It would help massively in a case like this if Mike Dean actually clarified his thought process publicly. We still might not agree with the decision but could at least understand why he made it and, possibly, accept it better.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
It's a risk isn't it? I'm trying to think of famous incidents, De Jong in the world cup final springs to mind, I'm sure he thought he was getting to ball as well! (And before anyone quotes me I'm not making a direct comparison between that and Stephens' tackle)
High feet is an instant free kick in Spain and Italy, especially if your studs are showing. Over here it's tolerated a bit more but you still get punished if you catch the other player.
Worried Man Blues
Well-known member
Last week end John Terry sending off. The Sunderland player did exactly the same as Stephens studs to ball at about 3 ft. JT was in late and got sent off but there was no mention at all that the Sunderland player had his foot too high or was dangerous. Also why did Gaston have his knee by the ball where his boot should have been?
Chief Wiggum
New member
- Apr 30, 2009
- 518
"It would help massively in a case like this if Mike Dean actually clarified his thought process publicly. We still might not agree with the decision but could at least understand why he made it and, possibly, accept it better"
This. All the time refs keep quiet about their decision making process and the FA close ranks, the more the abuse and mistrust will continue into the future. The alternative is to introduce replay technology, as has been done with almost every other Professional sport. I struggle to understand the football authorities stubborn resistance to it, especially when you now have such massive amounts of money at stake. They owe it to their referees as well. Mike Dean and his family can't have enjoyed him being called a c**t, abused and having the piss ripped out of him online by thousands of frustrated Brighton fans the last few days, but that's who we all vent our frustrations on in the absence of any fair system.
This. All the time refs keep quiet about their decision making process and the FA close ranks, the more the abuse and mistrust will continue into the future. The alternative is to introduce replay technology, as has been done with almost every other Professional sport. I struggle to understand the football authorities stubborn resistance to it, especially when you now have such massive amounts of money at stake. They owe it to their referees as well. Mike Dean and his family can't have enjoyed him being called a c**t, abused and having the piss ripped out of him online by thousands of frustrated Brighton fans the last few days, but that's who we all vent our frustrations on in the absence of any fair system.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
High feet is classed as being over waist height.
- Thread starter
- #248
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TS2GYBK_Ns
Differences:
1. Sunderland player got the ball first. Ramirez was nowhere near getting the ball first.
2. Terry kicked the Sunderland player not the ball. Stephens played the ball.
3. Despite this, and Terry's challenge is considerably worse than Stephens', Terry only got a yellow card, not a red. It happened to be his second yellow, of course.
Worried Man Blues
Well-known member
Yes, but my point was not about Terry but the Sunderland player, his approach i.e. foot up was the same as Stephen's but no mention of it being dangerous. It is impossible to approach a ball at that height without your studs being up.
Time to wade in but apologies as I haven't read the entire thread.
Dean had a clear, unobstructed view and immediately pulled out the yellow card. Challenge was maybe a yellow but I could understand the yellow just to calm things down as Stephens had got himself involved a minute or two before. He was intimidated by the three or four Boro players who got in his face and Ramirez knocking the yellow from his hand.
Yellow / red cards are based on the nature of the challenge, not on the resulting injury. Was it the "damage" that persuaded him to change his mind? If so, it was totally wrong. I'm not falling for the excuse that the assistant told him to change to a red. When I refereed I would overrrule an assistant if I had a totally clear view. As an assistant, I have been overruled by a referee who had a clear view of the incident. That just doesn't wash. Dean's position should have been "I saw it clearly. I'm sticking with the yellow thank you".
As a referee you should NEVER take into account the seriousness of an injury. It is irrelevant. Kayal showed the ref the state of his leg after that ******* Barton stamped on it and it made no difference.
I recall once a keeper being badly injured in a game. Keeper came out at speed into on-rushing attacker. Attacker was favourite made contact with the ball first. Straight into the keepers throat. Keeper had trouble breathing, ambulance called. Fully recovered I'm pleased to say. Did I send off the attacker? Absolutely not. Wasn't late or reckless just bloody unfortunate. That is precisely why you can't consider the seriousness of injury. (Not that Ramirez was badly injured anyway but that's not for now!)
Sometimes players get injuries, maybe serious, but without there being any fault. They are known as accidents.
So is Dean totally incompetent? Or is he a cheat? Now there's a poll
Dean had a clear, unobstructed view and immediately pulled out the yellow card. Challenge was maybe a yellow but I could understand the yellow just to calm things down as Stephens had got himself involved a minute or two before. He was intimidated by the three or four Boro players who got in his face and Ramirez knocking the yellow from his hand.
Yellow / red cards are based on the nature of the challenge, not on the resulting injury. Was it the "damage" that persuaded him to change his mind? If so, it was totally wrong. I'm not falling for the excuse that the assistant told him to change to a red. When I refereed I would overrrule an assistant if I had a totally clear view. As an assistant, I have been overruled by a referee who had a clear view of the incident. That just doesn't wash. Dean's position should have been "I saw it clearly. I'm sticking with the yellow thank you".
As a referee you should NEVER take into account the seriousness of an injury. It is irrelevant. Kayal showed the ref the state of his leg after that ******* Barton stamped on it and it made no difference.
I recall once a keeper being badly injured in a game. Keeper came out at speed into on-rushing attacker. Attacker was favourite made contact with the ball first. Straight into the keepers throat. Keeper had trouble breathing, ambulance called. Fully recovered I'm pleased to say. Did I send off the attacker? Absolutely not. Wasn't late or reckless just bloody unfortunate. That is precisely why you can't consider the seriousness of injury. (Not that Ramirez was badly injured anyway but that's not for now!)
Sometimes players get injuries, maybe serious, but without there being any fault. They are known as accidents.
So is Dean totally incompetent? Or is he a cheat? Now there's a poll
Indeed.
For reference, look back just a week, to the Derby home game. 0-0, Albion on top, when Knockaert is brought down from behind by Thorne, in the box. Ref thinks he probably got the ball, but the lino flags furiously for a foul. Does the ref HAVE to cede to him? Does he / did he fck.
I think you've missed the point. Terry was late, just like Gaston. It was Terry that committed the foul, just like Gaston.
The only difference is that Gaston managed to smash his shin against the underside of Stephens' boot. If Gaston had missed Dale's boot and kicked Dale's leg instead, the free kick would have been given against Gaston.
It was without doubt not because of another official. If another official was suggesting it was bad, the ref would have gone to talk to him before changing his mind from yellow to red. He changed it because of the injury.
If Gaston had a proper shin pad, Stephens wouldn't have been sent off.
It's a complete farce.
Worried Man Blues
Well-known member
as a ref do you keep the cards in the same pocket or red in a different pocket to the yellow, i.e. could he have accidentally pulled out the wrong one? Being mindful he is a professional!
Worried Man Blues
Well-known member
It would make it more interesting if the ref wasn't sure, he held both cards behind his back and asked the player to pick an arm and went with the resulting decision, no!
Interesting example to choose, actually - that was another incident where there was debate about which player had committed the offence.
Not for me. Goldson blocked his path and Lansbury took him out. It was a horrific challenge.