I think, to some extent, that Thatcher's friendship with Gorbachev and, following from that, Gorbachev's friendship with Reagan, formed a triumvirate of countries which trusted each other and wanted to bring about the end of the Cold War. I know Poland well, and it was always a country of Western ideas, but shackled by Russian Communism, which it hated, but had to abide by. Lech Walensa started the ball rolling with Solidarnosc but the Reagan-Gorbachev-Thatcher triumvirate gave East Berlin the confidence to chip away at the Berlin Wall until it finally fell. Mrs Thatcher didn't single-handedly end the Cold War, but as Seagull on the Wing said, she played some part in it.
Was Mrs. T good for Britain?
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I think, to some extent, that Thatcher's friendship with Gorbachev and, following from that, Gorbachev's friendship with Reagan, formed a triumvirate of countries which trusted each other and wanted to bring about the end of the Cold War. I know Poland well, and it was always a country of Western ideas, but shackled by Russian Communism, which it hated, but had to abide by. Lech Walensa started the ball rolling with Solidarnosc but the Reagan-Gorbachev-Thatcher triumvirate gave East Berlin the confidence to chip away at the Berlin Wall until it finally fell. Mrs Thatcher didn't single-handedly end the Cold War, but as Seagull on the Wing said, she played some part in it.
Theatre of Trees
Well-known member
A very Anglocentric view of the end of the Cold War. Gorbachev was the instigator and it was his decisions that ended it. In 1981 at the height of Solidarity crisis in Poland the USSR told Jaruzelski that if he didn't personally do something to end it then they would send the tanks in. Fast forward 8 years and Soviet refusal to intervene led to the end of the satellite regimes.
The bit about East Berlin is utter rubbish. The country was an artificial state that had problems keeping their population in during the 1950s hence the construction of the Berlin Wall. The population still had a wish to escape and once it discovered in 1989 that neighbouring Hungary had relaxed border controls with the West the East Germans all headed there for a 'holiday' and then over the border into Austria. As a consequence the East German regime had a stark choice, apply repression and strict border controls or do nothing and watch the population disappear en masse. The former required military assistance from the USSR and when that was refused the East Germans had no choice but go along with the wishes of their population. Once Checkpoint Charlie was opened the locals made a beeline towards the wall to destroy something that was a reminder of the repressive society they lived in. None of this bollocks about Thatcher inspiring them and giving them confidence.
Incidentally Walensa did not get the ball rolling, there had been anti-Communist uprisings in East Germany in 1953, Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, the Polish crisis was just another in a long line of resistance against what many locals believed was a regime imposed from outside.
I don't think it's Anglocentric to think the British Prime Minister played some part in the ending of the Cold War. That isn't to take anything away from Gorbachev at all. His slow, measured withdrawal was genius. The tragedy was his forced resignation at the hands of the ambitious Boris Yeltsin who did everything too fast and opened Russia up to profiteers and Mafia tricks.
I remember Hungary 1956 and was in Czechoslovakia in 1969 when there were still tanks and soldiers everywhere, so that's when I first became personally aware of such protests. But 1969 made no real difference. The Cold War carried on, if anything, more severely. The real difference was the courage of Lech Walesa. His actions certainly made me feel the Cold War was ending. I remember telling my Aunt so while she was here from Poland in 1988, because she did not have the same confidence. As an aside, my cousin and her husband and children escaped from Poland to Austria in 1985, when there was still no hope.
As to East Berlin, yes, I remember Hungary opening the border and no doubt you are better-informed than I am about the rest. However, a united Germany had only become a state under Bismarck in the 1870s, so the country of Germany wasn't that old. Sure, it was the descendant of the thousand-year-old Holy Roman Empire (and the parent of the EU), but as a sovereign confederation of united states, it was comparatively new.
pork pie
New member
Should have tried harder at school then mate!
There are not many jobs.....13 years of Liebour saw to that.
drew
Drew
Does Hovagirl have a relative with an anecdote that supports any number of her opinions!!!!!
drew
Drew
You're right of course. It has nothing to do with a financial crisis brought about by financial institutions that had been deregulated many decades ago.
pork pie
New member
No it was not that long ago. Cyclopse did it when "new" Labour came to power. At the time he sold our Gold Reserves for a fraction of their current value.
Yep.
Between 1999 and 2002, Mr Brown ordered the sale of almost 400 tons of the gold reserves when the price was at a 20-year low. Since then, the price has more than quadrupled, meaning the decision cost taxpayers an estimated £7 billion, according to Mike Warburton of the accountants Grant Thornton.
It is understood that Mr Brown pushed ahead with the sale despite serious misgivings at the Bank of England. It is not thought that senior Bank experts were even consulted about the decision, which was driven through by a small group of senior Treasury aides close to Mr Brown.
Explain why you sold Britain's gold, Gordon Brown told - Telegraph
A few more links, just in case some are not happy with the first tabloid report.
Gordon Brown Sold Britain’s Gold at Artificially Low Prices to Bail Out a Large American Bank | Zero Hedge
Gordon Brown Gold Sales - Browns Bottom Gold | UK Gold Reserves
How much did Gordon Brown's gold sale cost us?
And from HIS own WIKI page.
Between 1999 and 2002 Brown sold 60% of the UK's gold reserves shortly before gold entered a protracted bull market, since nicknamed by dealers as Brown Bottom. The official reason for selling the gold reserves was to reduce the portfolio risk of the UK's reserves by diversifying away from gold. The UK eventually sold about 395 tons of gold over 17 auctions from July 1999 to March 2002, at an average price of about US$275 per ounce, raising approximately US$3.5 billion. By 2011, that quantity of gold would be worth over $19 billion, leading to Brown's decision to sell the gold being widely criticised.
Top stream all the way. Mensa 153. Said to be a leading light in the future of the region, and strongly urged to edge my way up the departments.
Cu*t b*tch put a freeze on promotions and set a 5% cap against an 11% inflationary period - so it as a no win slump as it was, even before the union took exception and put us on a 4day week.
Enthusiasm killed just like that so I moved abroad and started my own business.
Now what was that again about my schooling sunshine?
Top stream all the way. Mensa 153. Said to be a leading light in the future of the region, and strongly urged to edge my way up the departments.
Cu*t b*tch put a freeze on promotions and set a 5% cap against an 11% inflationary period - so it as a no win slump as it was, even before the union took exception and put us on a 4day week.
Enthusiasm killed just like that so I moved abroad and started my own business.
Now what was that again about my schooling sunshine?
GT49er
Well-known member
Fair comment Twizzle. I am much the same as you, except I didn't go abroad, but am still working in the public sector (can't afford to retire!) I was working in the public sector in the Thatcher years to, and saw at first hand the damage done. Still, we who detested Thatcher have to accept certain facts, don't we?
The poll at the top of this thread shows 50% think Thatcher was good for Britain, and 44% voting for 'You must be joking' - so we must accept it is blindingly obvious she wasn't divisive.
And of course, us 44% are all chavs, layabouts, commies, benefit scroungers and thick (that must be true, because the pro-Thatcherites keep saying so).
There are plenty of insults we could hurl at them, too (think Tim Nice-but-Dim? - but actually not so nice) but of course we'd just be mud-slinging louts with no respect if we did that. They'd get apoplexy (which collectively might not be a bad thing). Oh yes, Thatcher changed this country alright! Good thing she was firm on Europe...........oh, wait a minute - wasn't it Thatcher that signed us up to the Single European Act in 1983(?), taking us deeper into Europe than ever before?
Pbseagull
New member
That feeling of "you can do nothing about it but watch stunned" still leaves me speechless.
Leaving quietly was all I could do - I voted with my feet, and plane ticket