[Politics] Voter Identification.

[The Clamp]

So presumably you also think that votes are suppressed in countries like Germany where voter ID already exists ? Fair enough if you do by the way although I don’t agree.

The German system (and most other countries) is quite different to what is being proposed here.
A German citizen provides identification (including national ID cards) to receive a polling card. Like the ones we receive.
To receive these in the U.K. and Germany a registration process is undertaken by the voter. The Germans, having already provided ID take their polling card along to the station. We don’t. The Tory’s want us to take a drivers license or passport to that polling station.

The German system is actually open to more fraud than the U.K.

The current U.K. system is absolutely fit for purpose and does not need changing. Especially as unless that change involves a universally attainable ID card, that change will give an unfair advantage to the Tory’s.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Countries like Germany have PR.

How many countries in the world have FPTP?

So would you support voter ID if we had PR ? It seems like two separate issues to me as I can’t see how it is voter suppression with FPTP and nothing to complain about with PR.

Germany already has a compulsory ID card system. Enforcing one without the other is pointless.

That’s a decent point. We are at risk of conflating different issues but this whole storm could just be calmed by bringing the UK into line with much of the rest of the world over ID cards. The real problem we have is a libertarian PM who is tying himself in knots by bringing in identification only for voting.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

So would you support voter ID if we had PR ? It seems like two separate issues to me as I can’t see how it is voter suppression with FPTP and nothing to complain about with PR.



That’s a decent point. We are at risk of conflating different issues but this whole storm could just be calmed by bringing the UK into line with much of the rest of the world over ID cards. The real problem we have is a libertarian PM who is tying himself in knots by bringing in identification only for voting.

Requiring ID cards just creates another argument over what problems that is meant to solve, and how the cost is justified given the enormous list of problems facing the country that would actually benefit from having the time, expense and money spent on them instead.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The German system (and most other countries) is quite different to what is being proposed here.
A German citizen provides identification (including national ID cards) to receive a polling card. Like the ones we receive.
To receive these in the U.K. and Germany a registration process is undertaken by the voter. The Germans, having already provided ID take their polling card along to the station. We don’t. The Tory’s want us to take a drivers license or passport to that polling station.

The German system is actually open to more fraud than the U.K.

The current U.K. system is absolutely fit for purpose and does not need changing. Especially as unless that change involves a universally attainable ID card, that change will give an unfair advantage to the Tory’s.

But that isn’t true.
https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/moving/voting

How to vote
A short time before the election a voting information card (Wahlbenachrichtigung) is sent to voters.

On polling day, go to the appropriate polling station taking:

Voter registration card (Wahlschein)
Proof of residency (Anmeldung)
Proof of identity (passport or driving licence)
The ballot papers (Stimmzettel) of all candidates and an envelope will be given.

Go into a polling booth and vote
Place the marked ballots in the envelope
Put the envelope into the ballot box
The name will be crossed off the list of voters to show that the person has voted.

 

[A1X]

That’s a decent point. We are at risk of conflating different issues but this whole storm could just be calmed by bringing the UK into line with much of the rest of the world over ID cards. The real problem we have is a libertarian PM who is tying himself in knots by bringing in identification only for voting.

Essentially the whole scheme, as far as I can tell, falls into one of these three categories;

1. Entirely unnecessary and a complete and utter waste of time and money which risks disenfranchising entirely innocent people.
2. A cynical attempt to remove a demographic of potential voters which are more likely to side with the opposition from the electorate by the Government.
3. The start of a "slippery slope" into introducing a national ID card scheme.

I think you can argue a case that it falls into any of them, but it doesn't really fall into any other based on the evidence we have available, so any alternative based around "voter fraud" simply doesn't stack up. The Government are being extremely cagey around why it is introduced, which (I think not unreasonably) draws people to the more "negative" second and third points.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Essentially the whole scheme, as far as I can tell, falls into one of these three categories;

1. Entirely unnecessary and a complete and utter waste of time and money which risks disenfranchising entirely innocent people.
2. A cynical attempt to remove a demographic of potential voters which are more likely to side with the opposition from the electorate by the Government.
3. The start of a "slippery slope" into introducing a national ID card scheme.

I think you can argue a case that it falls into any of them, but it doesn't really fall into any other based on the evidence we have available, so any alternative based around "voter fraud" simply doesn't stack up. The Government are being extremely cagey around why it is introduced, which (I think not unreasonably) draws people to the more "negative" second and third points.

I think it probably falls into all three of those categories, even if the government are only aiming for one of them.

You say the 2nd and 3rd points are more negative, if option 1 were the stated reason it'd suggest they've gone stark raving mad.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So would you support voter ID if we had PR ? It seems like two separate issues to me as I can’t see how it is voter suppression with FPTP and nothing to complain about with PR.



That’s a decent point. We are at risk of conflating different issues but this whole storm could just be calmed by bringing the UK into line with much of the rest of the world over ID cards. The real problem we have is a libertarian PM who is tying himself in knots by bringing in identification only for voting.

You've answered your own question there. I've carried an ID card for the majority of my working life, so I don't have a problem with them per se.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You've answered your own question there. I've carried an ID card for the majority of my working life, so I don't have a problem with them per se.

The actual voting system doesn’t matter too much in this context though (although I realize there are powerful arguments on both sides of that separate debate). Surely what matters here is the daftness of ID being right for elections but wrong for everything else. A lot of people have made the case that they don’t trust the Tories so this is voter suppression. Maybe they are right, but it’s only a view. Equally it could be the a gradual introduction of a national ID scheme.

 

[The Clamp]

But that isn’t true.
https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/moving/voting

How to vote
A short time before the election a voting information card (Wahlbenachrichtigung) is sent to voters.

On polling day, go to the appropriate polling station taking:

Voter registration card (Wahlschein)
Proof of residency (Anmeldung)
Proof of identity (passport or driving licence)
The ballot papers (Stimmzettel) of all candidates and an envelope will be given.

Go into a polling booth and vote
Place the marked ballots in the envelope
Put the envelope into the ballot box
The name will be crossed off the list of voters to show that the person has voted.

My understanding from mates living in Germany is that you are only required to produce ID if you haven’t got your polling card. The ID verification occurs at the point of registration. Most people will never be asked to produce ID at the polling station. Plus they have universal National ID cards, making it far easier for all sectors of society to register to vote and produce ID if required.
Those are crucial differences to the proposed U.K. system.
There are hundred of articles online outlining the key differences and the risks of disenfranchising large sectors of society.

I’m in favour of a universally obtainable ID card.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The actual voting system doesn’t matter too much in this context though (although I realize there are powerful arguments on both sides of that separate debate). Surely what matters here is the daftness of ID being right for elections but wrong for everything else. A lot of people have made the case that they don’t trust the Tories so this is voter suppression. Maybe they are right, but it’s only a view. Equally it could be the a gradual introduction of a national ID scheme.

If the ID cards are only for voting, then it is voter suppression. Many people are apathetic now about voting, using excuses like
My vote doesn't count where I live, put a red.blue rosette on a pig etc
All politicians lie so why should I vote for any of them.

Many people won't be bothered about getting an ID just to vote, so I suspect turn outs will be less and less, thereby enabling those who are determined to vote to have the main sway. Therefore turnouts will be low.

If the scheme is for National ID cards, of which voting is a small part, then I'm not so concerned about it.

 

[severnside gull]

So presumably you also think that votes are suppressed in countries like Germany where voter ID already exists ? Fair enough if you do by the way although I don’t agree.

Sorry but I thought your Brexit was about reclaiming OUR identity/borders/traditions etc rather than suddenly deciding to slavishly follow the example of Europe. What a very strange justification. Hypocrisy? Surely not?

 

[AlastairWatts]

Any attempt to restrict people from voting is pretty awful and undemocratic to be honest.

There were 2 (YES TWO) cases of voter fraud that were investigated in 2019 and resulted in conviction (four cases of electoral fraud in total) across the whole of the UK, a year that had a general election, and plenty of local elections. It's such a minimal non-problem the only reasonable logic for bringing in Voter ID is to make it more difficult to vote and therefore disenfranchising people.

There have been persistent rumours in this part of the world that high levels of voter fraud take place, especially in council elections. Taxi fleets (yes, true!) are rounded up to take voters to the poll and such voters are clearly marshalled into the polling centre. The whole thing is an unpleasant spectacle when witnessed by an an individual voter such as myself (although the dog comes too).

Not helped by the fact that I asked the Labour candidate hanging around outside the polling station clearly organising everything and wearing a big red rosette if Liverpool were playing that evening....

 

[A1X]

There have been persistent rumours in this part of the world that high levels of voter fraud take place, especially in council elections. Taxi fleets (yes, true!) are rounded up to take voters to the poll and such voters are clearly marshalled into the polling centre. The whole thing is an unpleasant spectacle when witnessed by an an individual voter such as myself (although the dog comes too).

Not helped by the fact that I asked the Labour candidate hanging around outside the polling station clearly organising everything and wearing a big red rosette if Liverpool were playing that evening....

This just sounds like the standard "get the voters out" tactic employed by all parties in every seat (certainly the ones feasibly up for grabs) rather than anything sinister. It's only an issue if they're being driven from that polling station to another polling station to vote again, which would count as voter fraud.

 

[beorhthelm]

This just sounds like the standard "get the voters out" tactic employed by all parties in every seat (certainly the ones feasibly up for grabs) rather than anything sinister. It's only an issue if they're being driven from that polling station to another polling station to vote again, which would count as voter fraud.

yes sounds along way from fraud. i recall the wisdom used to be Conservatives did better in bad weather because they could drive or run car pools to get elderly out to vote.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Sorry but I thought your Brexit was about reclaiming OUR identity/borders/traditions etc rather than suddenly deciding to slavishly follow the example of Europe. What a very strange justification. Hypocrisy? Surely not?

Brexit isn’t mine and it isn’t about the things you mention. I don’t say we should slavishly follow Europe but I do agree with many structures they have. Not wanting to be in the EU doesn’t mean rejection of everything European.I just think it odd that you condemn the UK but not Europe so you have rather bitterly twisted things around. Others have made good points about a common sense approach being to fully introduce national ID cards like on the continent. Do you agree or are you just opposed to anything a Tory Government does, in which case you don’t have much of an argument.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

There is absolutely no need for voter ID. Vote theft is not, has never been, and never will be an issue. I’m not fundamentally against a National ID scheme, it could help many people but..but ...As with anything this Tory government do, one has to examine who benefits the most. And as usual, it’s the Tory’s and their collaborators.

I guess it stops both the working class and the old voting.

Both of which vote Tory.

 

[A1X]

yes sounds along way from fraud. i recall the wisdom used to be Conservatives did better in bad weather because they could drive or run car pools to get elderly out to vote.

I've heard the same. I also believe it's why Labour are often keen to bring up the subject of bus services for similar reasons.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So presumably you also think that votes are suppressed in countries like Germany where voter ID already exists ? Fair enough if you do by the way although I don’t agree.

This is not true.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

This is not true.

I posted this link in post 384

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/moving/voting

Is it wrong ?

 

[clapham_gull]

There have been persistent rumours in this part of the world that high levels of voter fraud take place, especially in council elections. Taxi fleets (yes, true!) are rounded up to take voters to the poll and such voters are clearly marshalled into the polling centre.

Nonsense. That's been going on for years and has NOTHING to do with voter fraud.

My uncle used to allow the Lib Dems to drive him to the polling station for years on a promise he would vote for them, which he never did.