Tories 28 points up in the polls

[Dandyman]

So perhaps it is class after all.

I'd say the middle classes ARE accurately and adequately represented by the main 3 parties (plus nationalists), the upper classes are so small as to be insignificant and they're subsumed within the current system.

It's the working class that isn't adequately represented if I read what you and Dandyman are saying. How big is the working class vote though and what does it aspire to? Interesting that this is where the BNP have been making ground with the white working class.

I'm gonna make no assumptions here even though I'd say that I come from working class roots. I'm genuinely interested to know if there is a real and widespread appetite for a genuinely socialist run Britain rather than the free-market leaning mixed economy that all 3 parties espouse.

Was going to reply to your original post last night, but my computer kept crashing - must be a sign of the times.

Part of the problem with politics in this country is that we tend to define class by social classifications rather than by economic relationships. My definition of class in this context is the classical socialist one that the working class is everyone who earns their living by selling their physical or mental labour. In other words the vast bulk of the country with the owners of capital being on the other side (and yes this is complicated by shareholders and pension funds but the basic premise is the same).

As for what Cameron might produce in government, I'll give you ID cards as I suspect he is bright enough to foresee the costs, in all senses, of implementation but social justice along with anything that upsets the power, privileges or prejudices of those that bankroll the Tories I don't see.

Meanwhile class war in the form of the latest crisis of capitalism and what it means for working people across the globe seems alive and flourishing to me.

 

[binky]

Meanwhile class war in the form of the latest crisis of capitalism and what it means for working people across the globe seems alive and flourishing to me.

"Class war" is indicative of conspiracy, or at least willful planning.

The current financial failures have many causes, some forseeable some not, but planned, it isn't.
Given a choice between conspiracy and cock-up, cock-up wins every time.

 

[User removed 4]

As an example of this, if you ever watch question time and George Galloway is on there you will get people whom applaud him whatever drivel he says.

They applaud him because their own mind is so twisted by their hatred of the USA/Israel, they are not even listening to what Galloway says and what he does, they applaud like morons.

If you listen to what Galloway says at times it is absolutely ridiculous, it is plain absurd, but he himself in his own mind has become so twisted by his own prediduces against the USA and Israel that he allowed himself to become like this and eventually to become a puppet of Saddam Hussein (which is what he became).

Not once did he ever think to himself in this whole process, I may dislike the USA/Israel but two wrongs don't make a right and I am not going to be a mouthpiece to one of the most evil dictators since the end of the Second World War.

i dont agree with galloway in any way shape or form , but wasnt it good watching him slaughter thr US congressional committee?

 

[London Calling]

You seem to have cause and effect muddled up.

The coal industry and the (majority of) the car industry were uneconomic to run in the emerging global market.
The unions stock response when "threatened" with changes to working practices to improve efficieny, was to go on strike. Their response to having to accept an industry appropriate wage increase was to go on strike.
Clearly this was unsustainable in the long term.
Throughout the late 60s and 70s, successive labour governemts simply gave way, and paid up.
This resulted in the inefficiencies increasing.

By the time Magaret Thatcher came to power, both industries were being propped up by the tax payer.
The coal industry in particular was selling product which could be imported at only 25% of the cost.
There is a school of thought, which calls for strategically important industries to be government supported. Both coal and auto industries fall into this category.

Thatcher however, brought the economics of the corner shop to bear, and simply refused to continue subsidising the industries.
This is what led to the union conflicts.

In truth, the loss of these industries was a blow to the UK, and in hindsight, it would have been preferable to keep them.
However, the unions and successive weak governments both labour and tory, had made that impossible.

The loss of those industries, and the bulk of British manufacturing was the price we had to pay to pull the country out of bankrupcy. (Remember the IMF bailout?)

Yes, the early 80's were bad, but they were the consequence of labour and union policies of the 60s and 70s, and the inability of the weak Heath government to halt the rot.

By the way, does anyone remember the classic labour days of the mid-late 70s?

The enforced 3 day working week
Power cuts
Uncollected rubbish leading to huge rat infestations
Unburied bodies.
The Austin Allegro

The 80's were a beacon of hope to many of that generation after enduring labour through those times.

the classic conservative government days of the 70's

short working week,

power cuts,

rats in government fiend stopping free milk for kids,

fiend taking away quality standard away from school meals,


in the 80's all coal industries were state subsidised

 

[Dandyman]

"Class war" is indicative of conspiracy, or at least willful planning.

The current financial failures have many causes, some forseeable some not, but planned, it isn't.
Given a choice between conspiracy and cock-up, cock-up wins every time.

I'd say "class war" was the reality of divergent class interests, planned or not.

 

[vauxhallexile]

The Lib Dem thing is bizarre. Here we have a Government in turmoil. This is prime LD territory. They ARE the party of protest. Perhaps as Labour have moved to the right and LD have been seen as the left wing party that people now naturally distrust tax-raising parties. Might explain the volte-face by them this week.

It might also have something to do with just how they manage to elect completely unsuitable leaders after the coup on Charlie boy. (The tories did that a few times too before they got their act together). They just seem a bit incompetent, not so nice and a bit too near Labour at the moment.

I really don't know why they are doing so badly (and quietly parties such as the Greens and BNP are doing so relatively well). Keep an eye out on Labour's vote here in Brighton and in Norwich and Oxford compared to the Greens and for their vote in Barking and Stoke and Burnley compared to the BNP.

If things go SPECTACULARLY wrong for the Libs and for Labour then the pundits are predicting a merger.

Nonsense. Who are these "pundits"? They are talking utter nonsense.

 

[binky]

I'd say "class war" was the reality of divergent class interests, planned or not.

So in who's interest is the current financial turmoil?
I'm not seeing any winners.

 

[Dandyman]

So in who's interest is the current financial turmoil?
I'm not seeing any winners.

The crisis is probably not in anyone's interests but the reasons it occurred are surely due to the self-interest of speculators and the lack of proper regulation applied to them by their chums in government?

 

[binky]

the classic conservative government days of the 70's

short working week,

power cuts,

rats in government fiend stopping free milk for kids,

fiend taking away quality standard away from school meals,

Yup.
My bad memory, the 3 day week was under a conservative administration in 1973.
The result of Heath belatedly standing up against the unions, and ultimately losing. An episode which clearly made a lasting impression on the watchful Maggie who determined not to make the same mistake.

I'm not sure where you are coming from with the school meals.
my own recollection of school food, (1966 through 1976) was that it was universally awful, lacking any kind of nutritional or gourmet value.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

With so many weirdos and hippies in Brighton nowadays there is bound to be a large Green vote boosted by those former disaffected Labour voters. The BNP are pushing themselves forward as representing the working class instead of Labour and will do well in constituences that are etnically mixed. Not too sure what will happen to UKIP which appeals to the middle class but is just a thinking mans version of the BNP , they may pick up some votes from middle englanders but will be in competition with the Conservatives. People see the LibDems as a nothing party going absolutely nowhere so voting for them is a wasted vote. When parties get into power they are all the same as their predecessors - just waiting for the wheels to fall off.

 

[binky]

The crisis is probably not in anyone's interests but the reasons it occurred are surely due to the self-interest of speculators and the lack of proper regulation applied to them by their chums in government?

I'm still not seeing this as class war.
Self interest is an attribute across all humanity, not limited to people of a specified "class".

the lack of proper regulation was due to the "light touch" instgated by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, and current P.M. one Gordon Brown.
Are you seriously suggesting that Gordie is conducting some kind of class driven hidden agenda against the working classes?

The problems we face are many and complex, but class divisions, for all but the most head in the sand ideologist, are a thing of the past.

 

[London Calling]

Yup.
My bad memory, the 3 day week was under a conservative administration in 1973.
The result of Heath belatedly standing up against the unions, and ultimately losing. An episode which clearly made a lasting impression on the watchful Maggie who determined not to make the same mistake.

I'm not sure where you are coming from with the school meals.
my own recollection of school food, (1966 through 1976) was that it was universally awful, lacking any kind of nutritional or gourmet value.

In 78 I believe Barbara Castle introduced minimum "health" standards these were repealed by the Consewrvatives as part of its privisation of school meals.

 

[London Calling]

I'm still not seeing this as class war.
Self interest is an attribute across all humanity, not limited to people of a specified "class".

the lack of proper regulation was due to the "light touch" instgated by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, and current P.M. one Gordon Brown.
Are you seriously suggesting that Gordie is conducting some kind of class driven hidden agenda against the working classes?

The problems we face are many and complex, but class divisions, for all but the most head in the sand ideologist, are a thing of the past.

He certainly implementing a "cock it up big style agenda" actually Darling implementing big time, I am not sure what game Brown is planning.

 

[London Calling]

From Gordon Brown.

September 19, 2008
Ensuring economic stability


This has been an incredibly difficult week on the world's financial markets and, unsurprisingly, people are worried about how these events affect them and their families.

I know that across the country people are finding it difficult, with energy, food and fuel all costing more, and falling house prices causing uncertainty. That is why we have recently announced £1 billion of support for homeowners and the housing market and another £1 billion of help for families to save money by saving energy, with a national energy efficiency campaign launched this week. Following concerted action at an international level, oil prices have begun to fall and there are signs that this is being reflected on the forecourts too. We are working hard to reduce our dependence on imported oil and increase our use of alternative energy sources like renewables and nuclear.

But we are currently facing a unique combination of international circumstances that affect people not just here in Britain but in America and across the world.

This is a global phenomenon that will require a truly global solution, so as well as working hard with other countries to try to reduce volatility in oil markets, I am also working to get a better international system of regulation of world financial markets. But we also need to act domestically.

Quite simply, I am committed to doing whatever is necessary to ensure a stable financial system and protect our shared prosperity. We showed this when we acted on Northern Rock - ensuring that no depositor lost out.

This week we have taken action to enable the Lloyds/HBOS merger to move forward. Yesterday, the Financial Services Authority acted decisively to ban short selling, and today the US authorities have taken similar action.

We are now working with our international partners to get the coordinated action will we need in order to restore confidence to the global banking system. Central banks, including the Bank of England and European Central Bank, have joined together to provide liquidity for the system, and I have been talking to President Sarkozy about some of the measures that the European Union can take together.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer is also close contact with the US Treasury Secretary about how we can work together to deal with the common problems that we face, and in a statement this afternoon Secretary Paulson set out the steps that the US is now taking to increase confidence in the system.

I believe we have taken the right action to help families and businesses to get through these difficult times. We have provided extra, targeted support for those who need it most, and we will continue to act quickly and decisively to safeguard the stability of our financial system over the weeks and months ahead.










Gordon Brown

 

[drew]

Yup.
My bad memory, the 3 day week was under a conservative administration in 1973.
The result of Heath belatedly standing up against the unions, and ultimately losing. An episode which clearly made a lasting impression on the watchful Maggie who determined not to make the same mistake.

I'm not sure where you are coming from with the school meals.
my own recollection of school food, (1966 through 1976) was that it was universally awful, lacking any kind of nutritional or gourmet value.

Are you Maggie's love child by any chance?

I thought the 3 day week was due to the oil crisis caused by OPEC!

 

[NMH]

No way would I ever want those clown tories in, they have no clue and are a sure path to a diminishing economy and society.

The lib dems are just there to try to steal sausages, like the croc in Punch and Judy shows.

 

[binky]

Are you Maggie's love child by any chance?

Haha, not a chance. I hated the cow. I just think that with the benefit of a historical perspective, she deserves credit where it is due.

I thought the 3 day week was due to the oil crisis caused by OPEC!

Nope.
Miners union. Led to Heaths famous "Who Governs?" election which he lost to Wilson.

See here for a brief synopsis of striking coalminers.

 

[London Calling]

Haha, not a chance. I hated the cow. I just think that with the benefit of a historical perspective, she deserves credit where it is due.



Nope.
Miners union. Led to Heaths famous "Who Governs?" election which he lost to Wilson.

See here for a brief synopsis of striking coalminers.

I BELIEVE THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE SPELL OF A THREE DAY WEEK.

 

[binky]

I BELIEVE THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE SPELL OF A THREE DAY WEEK.

5 minutes googling only turns up the miners and Heath.
I remember the power cuts... lights going off at a moments notice, and we'd go round the house and light the candles.

I was only 12 at the time, so it all seemed quite exciting to me.
Health and safety probably wouldn't allow the candles these days

In retrospect, as an adult looking back, what a low point for the country to come to.
Yes, under a tory government, but caused by a bunch of trotskyite ideologist union leaders with absolutely no idea of the bigger picture.
Heath at least was trying to do the right thing.
He lost the election to Wilson who promptly caved in and gave the miners everything they wanted.
This ultimately led to the unions flexing their muscles in the "winter of discontent".

The rest, as they say, is history.

The Thatcher bashers on here should peer a little deeper into recent history, and conduct a few what if scenarios.

 

[NMH]

I BELIEVE THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE SPELL OF A THREE DAY WEEK.

British Rail workers went to a 4-day week, then a 3-day week in objection to her derisive instruction that they "tighten their belts as an example to the rest of the country" (given that they were Government run). This was followed by her offer of a 5% incremental raise to counter an 11% inflationary period.....along with a 6-month freeze on any promotions in the industry. In other words, she was exacerbating a strike simply so she could destroy the union.

I understand that her own government politicians were NOT subject to any such restrictions, and in fact took a meaty pay raise in that same period.
Nice example Mrs Thatcher