Those naughty banks; luckily the government are on their case.....

[jackanada]

Actually I'd disagree. At least you know where the Tories stand.

I strongly suspect Labour are all talk. If there's one thing they hate more than taking donations off tax dodgers, it's being beholden to the Unions. Lesser of two evils in their eyes.

I am a little confused, you know the Tory party govern according to the wishes of a tiny elite whose wealth is beyond reason or measure, or you actually believe the crap DC says? Either way voting for the less evil bunch of shysters seems sensible to me.
Further in these increasingly militaristic times I wish more parties would defend the rights of unions which many generations have fought and died for.

 

[jackanada]

Labour supporters should be attacking the wankers that turned the political party into a ersatz Tory Party, not the Tories.

It's not that Labour are not a bunch of *****, and that Tony Blair was a massive ****, but that the Conservative party are an even bigger bunch of *****, and that David Cameron is unbelievably massive ****.

 

[spring hall convert]

I am a little confused, you know the Tory party govern according to the wishes of a tiny elite whose wealth is beyond reason or measure, or you actually believe the crap DC says? Either way voting for the less evil bunch of shysters seems sensible to me.
Further in these increasingly militaristic times I wish more parties would defend the rights of unions which many generations have fought and died for.

I think you've missed my point. Reread what I wrote. I'm say this party resents it's reliance on the union and would love to be funded the same way the Tories are.

You seriously think this Labour Party is pro-union?? What's their policy on austerity?? How will they regulate the banks??

Blair wasn't a lone wolf you fool, he still exterts influence over the Labour Party today and there were plenty of others (some still in the party.) They are still a long way to the right of where they were under John Smith (who I suspect would have got elected had he not died.) which was a long way to left of where they were in the mid 80's.

I seriously doubt I would ever vote for them again, it started as a protest on Iraq but my problem with the current set up runs so much deeper than that.

 

[spring hall convert]

It's not that Labour are not a bunch of *****, and that Tony Blair was a massive ****, but that the Conservative party are an even bigger bunch of *****, and that David Cameron is unbelievably massive ****.

I genuinely think all of us need to stop voting for things because they are less bad than other things. Find something that represents you and if nothing does, create it.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

I'm not saying we should, I am arguing that the principal of Liberte, Egalite , Fraternite that emerged from the French Revolution, and the psuedo-marxist regime of early post revolutionary Russia before Stalinism came to the fore are very similar. Trotsky compared Lenin to Robespierre, but neither revolution really had the outcome that it's protaginists intended, because as we all know, ' absolute power corrupts, absolutely' ( George Orwell, Animal farm ).

Cuba is possibly the only Country currently attempting to follow a socialist path in its truist sense.

What Great Britain has attempted is social democracy between 1945 -75, based upon a highly Christian orientated philosophy of ' love thy neighbour ', but this has evolved since Thatcherism and become much more aligned to the American philosophy of the Citizen looking purely after his own interests. However, unlike in the US, where the concept of Philanthrapy, or what we would call ' noblesse oblige ' exists, Britains are now notorious for not really giving a stuff about their fellow citizen.

 

[BadFish]

I genuinely think all of us need to stop voting for things because they are less bad than other things. Find something that represents you and if nothing does, create it.

I agree wholeheartedly. Tactial voting is logical on many levels but really just keeps us flitting between the Status Quo. Lets hope UKIP and the Greens show that it is possible for minority parties to take a decent chunk of the vote and make some changes to our current stagnation.

 

[beorhthelm]

The problem isn't only the lack of democratic options, it's the democratic process itself. It's a two-party system and always will be. The problems we are having will perpetuate indefinitely, because it's obvious who the two main parties really serve.

has it ever occurred to you (or anyone else complaining about lack of choices) that the democratic consensus is content with this arrangement?

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

has it ever occurred to you (or anyone else complaining about lack of choices) that the democratic consensus is content with this arrangement?

You just have to look at the percentage of the electorate who don't vote at elections to quantify the number of people who don't accept the current arrangement of 'first past the post'.

Proportional representation might just make a few people less apathetic about the whole process.

 

[spring hall convert]

has it ever occurred to you (or anyone else complaining about lack of choices) that the democratic consensus is content with this arrangement?

Turnout wouldn't really indicate that. We had a deeply unpopular, failed Government in the 2010 election and only 65% of people turned out, 2005 was 61% and 2001, an absolutely pitiful 59%. 2001 was the first time it had ever been under 70% from a post-war peak in excess of 80%. The post war trend line is a significant decline.

In the last general election only 42.38% of the registered electorate voted Labour or Conservative. Some of that would have been tactical.

Membership of the Labour Party and Conservative Party are at an all time low.

I think those are signs of disillusionment not contentment. To suggest that the majority of people are content with the current democratic consensus is ludicrous. I just think that the majority of people lack the feeling of empowerment to do anything about it. It's utterly depressing.

 

[beorhthelm]

You just have to look at the percentage of the electorate who don't vote at elections to quantify the number of people who don't accept the current arrangement of 'first past the post'.

that's a substantial assumption made on the basis of your view and no real evidence. i could argue apathy indicates implicit acceptance of the process. we live in a pretty free country but i don't see a real "change the system" party emerging, despite the claims of the radicals that that is what the population are demanding. i dont disagree that the system could do with a kick up the arse, i speculate that the consensus may not share our interest to do something about it, let along what that something may be.

i may be completely wrong, the point is has anyone actually asked "us" and if so what is the response. in the past political movements have sprung up in response to widespread demand for change and seen it through (cf Labour Party), it is possible that not enough feel they need change, or put another way everything is "good enough" and people are content to let it be?

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

that's a substantial assumption made on the basis of your view and no real evidence. i could argue apathy indicates implicit acceptance of the process. we live in a pretty free country but i don't see a real "change the system" party emerging, despite the claims of the radicals that that is what the population are demanding. i dont disagree that the system could do with a kick up the arse, i speculate that the consensus may not share our interest to do something about it, let along what that something may be.

i may be completely wrong, the point is has anyone actually asked "us" and if so what is the response. in the past political movements have sprung up in response to widespread demand for change and seen it through (cf Labour Party), it is possible that not enough feel they need change, or put another way everything is "good enough" and people are content to let it be?

And I'd argue that the Scottish Referendum turnout blows your arguement out of the water. People DO care and DO get engaged with the decision making process IF they can see that their vote WILL make a difference.

 

[beorhthelm]

thats a fair point.

 

[Machiavelli]

And I'd argue that the Scottish Referendum turnout blows your arguement out of the water. People DO care and DO get engaged with the decision making process IF they can see that their vote WILL make a difference.

Spot on. But it's also about identifying, deliberating, disagreeing and deciding on an issue that is substantial. This was the case with the Scottish referendum, but not that dire, limited sideshow we were granted with the electoral referendum granted by the coalition (remember that?).

 

[Machiavelli]

This is why I am such an advocate of direct democracy - where people vote directly for issues, rather than political parties or MP's to decide on the issues for us.

We don't have nearly enough referendums... imagine the turnout if we had democratic votes on key issues such as bankers, drug laws, international policy and so on.

Referenda themselves are problematic when they are not properly engaged with and debated. This is what happened with the electoral reform referendum of 2011 (42% turnout), in stark contrast to the Scottish one (85% turnout).

 

[Machiavelli]

Anyway, back to the bankers -- will be interesting to see if it begins to have an effect on the opinion polls. This really is delicious, see:

http://www.theguardian.com/business...aised-over-5m-from-hsbc-swiss-account-holders

Conservative donors, peers and a high profile MP are listed among the wealthy who legally held accounts in Switzerland with HSBC’s private bank, for a wide variety of reasons.

Their ranks include Zac Goldsmith, MP for Richmond Park, plus his brother the financier Ben Goldsmith, and a Swiss resident, German-born automotive heir Georg von Opel, who has donated six-figure sums in the past two years.

Peers named in the HSBC files include Lord Sterling of Plaistow, the P&O shipping and ports entrepreneur who was ennobled by Margaret Thatcher, and Lord Fink, who was a party treasurer under David Cameron and has given £3m to the Conservatives.

Zac Goldsmith has, with his brother Ben and their mother Lady Annabel, donated over £500,000 in cash and in kind to the Conservatives.

The Conservatives have raised over £5m from HSBC clients recorded with Swiss accounts, while Labour has also benefited from cash and gifts in kind worth over £500,000, as well as a loan for £2m.

Labour donors who held Swiss accounts with HSBC include the steel magnate Swraj Paul and restaurant owner and clothing entrepreneur Richard Caring, who at various times is recorded to have donated to both Labour and the Conservatives.

Von Opel, a major Tory donor named in the HSBC files, is a great-grandson of the German automotive entrepreneur Adam Opel. He has UK homes and a British wife, but told the Guardian he is a Swiss resident.

Since moving to Switzerland as a child, Von Opel has been a tax exile, managing his fortune from there. His office said none of Von Opel’s accounts were used for evading or avoiding tax. They added: “Mr von Opel … is a Swiss national and a Swiss resident since 1973.”

This has not stopped him from financing British politics. Since December 2012, Von Opel has donated over £430,000 to the Conservatives. He owns homes and a business in Britain, and has been on the electoral register since 2010, entitling him to make party donations. EU citizens like Von Opel are entitled to vote in local but not national elections.

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HSBC files: how secret Swiss account data detailing misconduct came to light
A number of political donors found to have Swiss accounts are also high profile members of Britain’s growing non-dom community – the tens of thousands of wealthy foreign residents attracted to the UK by a historical quirk which allows them to live in the country without paying inheritance tax or incurring tax on assets owned offshore, by claiming they will eventually retire abroad.

Sterling was linked to three HSBC accounts totalling £7.8m. Two of them were for his UK investment businesses while the third was for an offshore trust, the Harry Sterling 1964 Settlement, established by his father.

Sterling said the HSBC accounts were opened by Veritas Asset Management, an investment firm which managed his personal and corporate assets, that his financial arrangements were fully declared, and that no tax had been avoided.

One of the Conservative party’s recent treasurers, Lord Fink, formerly Stanley Fink, is revealed as having made the most of a four-year posting to Switzerland while working at hedge fund the Man Group.

He opened Swiss accounts with HSBC in 1996 and 1997, which banked Man Group shares held in UK-registered bare trusts designed to minimise capital gains tax and future inheritance taxes. Most of the trusts were wound up when he returned to London.

Fink said they were fully declared and tax paid on all the dividends they received. “I was Swiss-resident … the only reasons I opened bank accounts in Switzerland was the ordinary management of my current affairs. To the extent I created any trust accounts, these were perfectly normal planning matters, and could have been set up with similar effect, without the Swiss bank being involved.”

Edward Lee, who is on the board of Conservative Friends of Israel, has given some £85,000 to the Tories. Lee and his brother were sons of the late Arnold Lee, a prominent London property developer, who set up offshore trusts for them in the 1970s. Their Swiss accounts had a value up to £2m. Lee says all his tax affairs have been correctly declared and reported: “I have paid all tax as and when due.”

Zac and Ben Goldsmith inherited French nationality and non-domicile status from their father Sir James Goldsmith. HSBC Suisse was used to distribute a tax sheltered offshore fortune to around 15 family members, and the money has since been invested by his heirs in UK properties and businesses.

This perk ended for Zac Goldsmith in 2009, when he relinquished his non-dom status after a public outcry. He said he paid all taxes on income and capital gains, and that the offshore structure created by his father “was not designed to mitigate taxation but rather to preserve the assets for future generations”. Ben Goldsmith declined to comment further.

Those who claim non-domicile status, a quirk of British law which dates back to colonial times, must persuade tax inspectors that they intend to eventually leave the country for good.

Sir Anwar Pervez, the founder of the Bestway cash and carry business, hedge fund investor Arpad Busson, and restaurant owner and clothing entrepreneur Richard Caring have all donated to British political parties, but under tax rules they must declare to the Revenue that they will be ending their days abroad.

Pervez has donated, personally and through his company, over £500,000 to a range of parties, although the vast majority of his gifts have been to the Conservatives. HSBC’s records indicate that Pervez and every other director on Bestway’s eight-member board were linked with Swiss accounts. Pervez said the Revenue were aware of these accounts and trusts and all directors were tax compliant.

The financier Arpad Busson, a French national now based in London whose charity ARK manages over 30 academy schools, has given £75,000 to the Tories via his company and held millions in an array of HSBC Swiss accounts. Busson said he had paid substantial UK tax.

Lord Paul, who has given nearly £500,000 over a 25-year period to Labour, mostly via his UK companies, held a considerable portion of his fortune via Geneva, with accounts containing up to £240m. Paul relinquished his non-dom status in 2010, after parliamentarians were banned from using the benefit. He said the Revenue was fully aware of his accounts and that they had incurred no additional tax.

Swiss client Richard Caring, owner of London society venues the Ivy and Annabel’s, loaned £2m to Labour when the party was last in government, before publicly switching his support. He has now made donations worth over £400,000 to the Tories. As a non-dom born to an American father, Caring lives in the UK but has to say for tax purposes that he will not reside in the country indefinitely. Caring, who banked up to £100m in HSBC Suisse, said he had paid all due taxes on time.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

So on the one hand our politicians want overseas territories acting as tax havens, who don't disclose registers of accounts, to be put on an international blacklist, yet they have ( from both sides of the House of Commons ) benefitted from having political donations from exactly those self same accounts.

And one particular bank has helped to organise this.

It has the whiff of MP's expenses all over again........... Oh the hypocracy.

Anyone dare going to suggest we put Switzerland on an International black list ?

 

[spring hall convert]

This is why I am such an advocate of direct democracy - where people vote directly for issues, rather than political parties or MP's to decide on the issues for us.

We don't have nearly enough referendums... imagine the turnout if we had democratic votes on key issues such as bankers, drug laws, international policy and so on.

Imagine the turnout if we weren't laughably insisting on personal or postal vote in 2015? We could have a scenario where it's easier to vote than not vote. It's almost as it's archaic to deliberately put us off with engaging with it.

(Election night wouldn't be as fun though.)

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Imagine the turnout if we weren't laughably insisting on personal or postal vote in 2015? We could have a scenario where it's easier to vote than not vote. It's almost as it's archaic to deliberately put us off with engaging with it.

(Election night wouldn't be as fun though.)

But we all know how easy it would be to rig an election by on-line fraud, or by intercepting e-mails, even if the maximum level of encryption was used. If IS can hack twitter accounts, and GCHQ can intercept your e-mails and phone calls, how do we keep it a secret ballot?

Just because it's archaic doesn't mean it should be the exclusive preserve of pensioners. The fact that you have to be there in person to cast your vote, and the Police are there to ensure 'fair play' is probably the only way to stop vote-rigging, or the sudden 'disappearance' into the ether of 'blocks' of votes.

If Blue Peter can rig an election to choose the name of a cat, it's gotta be childs play!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483925/Blue-Peter-says-sorry-cat-fixing-scandal.html

 

[BadFish]

But we all know how easy it would be to rig an election by on-line fraud, or by intercepting e-mails, even if the maximum level of encryption was used. If IS can hack twitter accounts, and GCHQ can intercept your e-mails and phone calls, how do we keep it a secret ballot?

Just because it's archaic doesn't mean it should be the exclusive preserve of pensioners. The fact that you have to be there in person to cast your vote, and the Police are there to ensure 'fair play' is probably the only way to stop vote-rigging, or the sudden 'disappearance' into the ether of 'blocks' of votes.

If Blue Peter can rig an election to choose the name of a cat, it's gotta be childs play!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483925/Blue-Peter-says-sorry-cat-fixing-scandal.html

In this day and age though, surely we can work out a system to use the power of the internet to garner public opinion on important issues.

Of course this would be much easier if we weren't so (rightly) mistrusting of the system and those that operate in it.