the missing 19 billion?

[glasfryn]

Try here, it was on the website, not too difficult to find.

http://www.trusselltrust.org/resources/documents/Press/TT-Foodbank-Information-Pack-2013-14.pdf




I think part of the problem relates to the alleged £19b that never was. To clarify, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got the gist wrong. Ireland have bad credit rating and market x will only lend to them at a hypothetical rate of 20%. We, on the other hand have excellent credit rating, and can borrow from market x at a rate of 5%. So, we borrow £12b and immediately lend it to Ireland and charge a rate of 10%. We are therefore making a profit of £600m and Ireland are getting a much better deal. We run the risk of Ireland defaulting but in the real world we stand to lose a lot of trade with our close neighbour if they went the same way as Greece.
.


It might have helped if you described it as borrow and spend your way out of a recession or tighten the belts.

I do understand this (and always have) my point is/has been why do we have to do this when we have ever increasing foodbanks used by our own people.
this country has always been run on debt what is this governments problem with this? and why are they making those that have nothing to start with pay to clear the debt and what worries me is its going to get worse under them and somewhat watered down if the others get in

 

[Hastings gull]

Try here, it was on the website, not too difficult to find.

http://www.trusselltrust.org/resources/documents/Press/TT-Foodbank-Information-Pack-2013-14.pdf




I think part of the problem relates to the alleged £19b that never was. To clarify, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got the gist wrong. Ireland have bad credit rating and market x will only lend to them at a hypothetical rate of 20%. We, on the other hand have excellent credit rating, and can borrow from market x at a rate of 5%. So, we borrow £12b and immediately lend it to Ireland and charge a rate of 10%. We are therefore making a profit of £600m and Ireland are getting a much better deal. We run the risk of Ireland defaulting but in the real world we stand to lose a lot of trade with our close neighbour if they went the same way as Greece.
.


It might have helped if you described it as borrow and spend your way out of a recession or tighten the belts.

Many thanks and this seemingly different link did give the figures easily. I have absolutely no axe to grind either way, but I do tend to be wary of figures that lend credence to a particular view. This charity, whilst I do not dispute the benefits of their work, and certainly praise their idealism, is prone to exaggeration, as many pressure groups tend to be. They say that 1 in 5 in the UK lives in poverty, which I find very hard to accept. True, there is relative poverty, as there always will be, sadly, but one's definition of poverty would have to be very wide for this to be a realistic assessment. I recall once on a phone-in when someone claimed that if you smoke, you can't be poor, which seemed rather harsh, but it shows how subjective the definition of poverty can be.
Glasfyn's reasons for talking about food banks are doubtless to do with blaming the current coalition, and again I would be wary of being so simplistic as to whether it is all their fault, though the numbers using foodbanks have doubtless gone up on their watch. My friend goes to help a poor family once a week; mum's husband/partner cleared off and does not contribute to the child, mum has now met a new partner, and, understandably enough, they have started a family, with twins having arrived, but they only have a one-bedroom flat. Neither works, and the place is in a total mess. The reason they give for the mess is that they do not know when the dustmen arrive, despite the fact that both are at home all day. Hundreds of thousands of children have similar experiences, I would imagine, and from my time teaching, I know that this sort of existence would not be a rarity. Of course this is not the child's fault and they deserve support, which is given at school, but we must be very careful and not blame politicians of all shades (poverty wasn't invented these last 5 years!) for poverty when it can equally be caused by a lack of personal responsibility.

 

[drew]

I do understand this (and always have) my point is/has been why do we have to do this when we have ever increasing foodbanks used by our own people.
this country has always been run on debt what is this governments problem with this? and why are they making those that have nothing to start with pay to clear the debt and what worries me is its going to get worse under them and somewhat watered down if the others get in

It is clear that you don't get it. If the situation is as i described then we are making profit on the deal. Money that goes into our economy. If we just borrowed the money then that would be added to the debt and instead of earning £600m a year we would be paying £600m a year! The question then is how we spend that £600m. Do we spend it for the benefit those at the lower end of society or do you follow the Tory way and put it in the pockets of the rich!

 

[knocky1]

I suspect there is some bloke in tha pub in Dubin right now raising a class or two of the black stuff to our generous government after buying a round with our money
I cannot afford to drink
.......................but cheers david and gideon

Just joined this thread am I right to summarise it to be about us giving loads of money to the Irish and that they (a racist notion) have spent it all on pints of Guiness. On top of this the Government are doing nothing about Westdene Seagull saying he lives in Hangleton when clearly he cannot. Furthermore you seem to have been very drunk yesterday despite being unable to afford drink.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Just joined this thread am I right to summarise it to be about us giving loads of money to the Irish and that they (a racist notion) have spent it all on pints of Guiness. On top of this the Government are doing nothing about Westdene Seagull saying he lives in Hangleton when clearly he cannot. Furthermore you seem to have been very drunk yesterday despite being unable to afford drink.

Bugger .... found out ... I blame those pesky kids .... and that idiot Scrappy !

 

[Mr Bridger]

Just joined this thread am I right to summarise it to be about us giving loads of money to the Irish and that they (a racist notion) have spent it all on pints of Guiness. On top of this the Government are doing nothing about Westdene Seagull saying he lives in Hangleton when clearly he cannot. Furthermore you seem to have been very drunk yesterday despite being unable to afford drink.

spent money on booze = made him skint = no money for food= went to food bank = blame the Tories.

 

[glasfryn]

Just joined this thread am I right to summarise it to be about us giving loads of money to the Irish and that they (a racist notion) have spent it all on pints of Guiness. On top of this the Government are doing nothing about Westdene Seagull saying he lives in Hangleton when clearly he cannot. Furthermore you seem to have been very drunk yesterday despite being unable to afford drink.

no actually its about this government spunking loads of money anywhere and everywhere across the world, when we have working people having to use food banks
+ you obviously do not know me otherwise you would know I never drink and even if I did I would not be able to afford it

 

[Baldseagull]

I do understand this (and always have) my point is/has been why do we have to do this when we have ever increasing foodbanks used by our own people.
this country has always been run on debt what is this governments problem with this? and why are they making those that have nothing to start with pay to clear the debt and what worries me is its going to get worse under them and somewhat watered down if the others get in

The problem is not that we have some debt, it is that we have so much debt that in order to pay the interest and do everything else, we are having to borrow more, even now.
Despite the spending cuts, our debts are still increasing, because the tax take (income) is lower than the total budget (outgoings). This is called a budget deficit.
If and when we get to the point where the treasury brings in more than it is due to spend, we will have a budget surplus, and can pay down some of the debt, this is not going to happen for several years yet. In order to secure the loans required to run at a deficit, at the cheapest possible rates, we have to at least make it look like we have a plan to get to a budget surplus.
The loan to Ireland increases the income to the treasury more than it increases the outgoings, it is slightly reducing our budget deficit.

In short, we have to borrow a little less to run the country, because we did that deal. It actually gives us the ability to do a little bit more for people who are struggling, if it is not happening, it is not because we lent money to Ireland.

 

[glasfryn]

The problem is not that we have some debt, it is that we have so much debt that in order to pay the interest and do everything else, we are having to borrow more, even now.
Despite the spending cuts, our debts are still increasing, because the tax take (income) is lower than the total budget (outgoings). This is called a budget deficit.
If and when we get to the point where the treasury brings in more than it is due to spend, we will have a budget surplus, and can pay down some of the debt, this is not going to happen for several years yet. In order to secure the loans required to run at a deficit, at the cheapest possible rates, we have to at least make it look like we have a plan to get to a budget surplus.
The loan to Ireland increases the income to the treasury more than it increases the outgoings, it is slightly reducing our budget deficit.

In short, we have to borrow a little less to run the country, because we did that deal. It actually gives us the ability to do a little bit more for people who are struggling, if it is not happening, it is not because we lent money to Ireland.

but we have good employment figures and those in employment not paying tax
amazon
Google
Starbucks
Vodaphone
to name a few that still owe us tax they owe enough to build god knows how many hospitals and staff them

and this money is not going to those who are struggling is it they are talking of chopping another 20b off welfare

 

[Baldseagull]

but we have good employment figures and those in employment not paying tax
amazon
Google
Starbucks
Vodaphone
to name a few that still owe us tax they owe enough to build god knows how many hospitals and staff them

and this money is not going to those who are struggling is it they are talking of chopping another 20b off welfare

Still nothing to do with a loan to Ireland. Google "Google Tax" for that one.