[Albion] The injustice against Liverpool

[Colonel Mustard]

VAR does not make decisions except for offsides so it's always "inconclusive" anyway. If VAR feels that the referee might change his decision if he has another look they tell him to go to the screen.

Fair point, you’re correct. Though if the VAR advises the ref to go to the screen to reconsider his penalty decision I guess that’s tantamount to making a decision, or at least having very strong reservations about it.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

That’s ridiculous. It panders to the conspiracy theorists who much prefer to assume that the world’s against them than the obvious truth — that people under pressure make cock-ups. Better training, technology and procedures is what’s needed. Some of these things can happen immediately while others will take time.

You don't think PGMOL will be trying their damnedest to redress the balance in favour of Liverpool on Sunday then? I think you may be in the minority on that one

 

[Colonel Mustard]

You don't think PGMOL will be trying their damnedest to redress the balance in favour of Liverpool on Sunday then? I think you may be in the minority on that one

No, I don’t think that. I’m not a conspiracy theorist.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

No, I don’t think that. I’m not a conspiracy theorist.

Its nothing at all about conspiracy.

Jurgen Klopp, the red-friendly media machine, and the worldwide army of Liverpool fans, are up in arms about Saturday's events, and are making as much fuss about it as they possibly can.

Consciously or subconsciously that puts a huge amount of extra pressure on this weekend's officials, not to give any subjective calls against Liverpool for fear of getting caught up in their angry crusade.

 

[Easy 10]

So the VAR actually made the right call to allow the goal, as Diaz was clearly onside. But then crucially all he communicated to the ref was "check over", having not realised that the lino had (wrongly) flagged for offside. So the ref just went along with "check over" as reinforcing the onfield decision of offside as correct, when it wasn't.

I mean, that is absolutely ASTONISHING incompetence on a biblical scale. Could the ref not have simply asked "ok check over - so offside then ?" to clarify ? Could the VAR, then having seen the ref wrongly award a free kick to Spurs instead of the goal, not have just said "hang on Hoops - its a goal, he was well onside" ?

What in the name of flying frig is going on with these people.

 

[Dirty Dave]

They say 'serious human error' when actually it's serious incompetence

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Could the ref not have simply asked "ok check over - so offside then ?" to clarify ? Could the VAR, then having seen the ref wrongly award a free kick to Spurs instead of the goal, not have just said "hang on Hoops - its a goal, he was well onside" ?

That's the issue. Weirdly enough they actually confirmed the onside with the tech REALLY quickly for once. So much so that it felt odd but for once it seems that process was really smooth.

But then, as you say it's two major F ups. Just speak in PLAIN English. "Diaz is onside and it's a goal". Done. None of this Check Complete stuff. GOAL. or NO GOAL.

I'm DESPERATE to hear the audio of when the game resumed, without a kick off and the score remaining the same.

"urrrr......Darren. I think we may have fu...."
"Don't". Just Don't"
"But...shouldn't we let...."
"Shut......up"

 

[raymondo]

The way I see it is there's three major issues here:
1. English football has made some strange decisions about implementing VAR- IE not using semi automated offsides.
2. There's too much inconsistency from VAR and referees.
3. There's too much scrutiny during a game and afterwards. Not just the big decisions- every little action seems to be broken down and analysed, as if we are all desperate to find the smallest injustice or mistake.

VAR should be used for:
Goal line technology and the ball going out of play.
Offsides using the semi automated system.
Violent conduct and off the ball indiscretions.

And that's it.

Let's take this nonsense with handballs in the box. It's rubbish. It's totally subjective and it's totally inconsistent.
It should simply be the case that if the referee and lino miss it, so be it. Refs can still be scrutinised after the game- if it's a howler demote them. Put more responsibility back on the referees to actually ref the game rather than relying on VAR. Using this example- I'm sorry but it just isn't as important as whether an effort on goal actually goes over the line. You can slow down a replay as much as you want, use as many angles, change the rules - unnatural body position, ball to hand, meh - but the reality is that in real time it's often impossible to know. So just let these things go. It's obvious when it's an actual handball- where someone lifts their arm to clear a corner or uses their hands to 'save' a goal bound shot.

VAR has become like some dystopian vision of an AI computer that ends up destroying itself. It's cannibalising itself and ruining the game.

Yes, especially..."Put more responsibility back on the referees to actually ref the game rather than relying on VAR"

 

[raymondo]

That's the issue. Weirdly enough they actually confirmed the onside with the tech REALLY quickly for once. So much so that it felt odd but for once it seems that process was really smooth.

But then, as you say it's two major F ups. Just speak in PLAIN English. "Diaz is onside and it's a goal". Done. None of this Check Complete stuff. GOAL. or NO GOAL.

I'm DESPERATE to hear the audio of when the game resumed, without a kick off and the score remaining the same.

"urrrr......Darren. I think we may have fu...."
"Don't". Just Don't"
"But...shouldn't we let...."
"Shut......up"

I think they were so pleased with themselves for confirming the onside so quickly...that they immediately went to the bar for a congratulatory drink

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Yes, especially..."Put more responsibility back on the referees to actually ref the game rather than relying on VAR"

Maybe they said "Great work guys. Which pub was it you said we should go to?"
"I can't remember. Check with Pete"
"Check Complete?"

 

[keaton]

I'm sure they did notice.

But my understanding is the rules say that as soon as play restarts, they can't then overturn. Which is obviously ridiculous if true.

But that's not always the case, Dunk's free kick v West Brom a few years ago

 

[raymondo]

Maybe they said "Great work guys. Which pub was it you said we should go to?"
"I can't remember. Check with Pete"
"Check Complete?"

Yep, "which pub?, The Dog and Duck?", " No! the Don't Give a F*ck" "Ah yes, our usual place "

 

[Colonel Mustard]

So the VAR actually made the right call to allow the goal, as Diaz was clearly onside. But then crucially all he communicated to the ref was "check over", having not realised that the lino had (wrongly) flagged for offside. So the ref just went along with "check over" as reinforcing the onfield decision of offside as correct, when it wasn't.

I mean, that is absolutely ASTONISHING incompetence on a biblical scale. Could the ref not have simply asked "ok check over - so offside then ?" to clarify ? Could the VAR, then having seen the ref wrongly award a free kick to Spurs instead of the goal, not have just said "hang on Hoops - its a goal, he was well onside" ?

What in the name of flying frig is going on with these people.

You’re right, and I’m pretty certain that will be an immediate change (and improvement) to their procedures. Like most things in life, it takes a cock up, or tragedy, to bring about change.

 

[keaton]

That's the issue. Weirdly enough they actually confirmed the onside with the tech REALLY quickly for once. So much so that it felt odd but for once it seems that process was really smooth.

But then, as you say it's two major F ups. Just speak in PLAIN English. "Diaz is onside and it's a goal". Done. None of this Check Complete stuff. GOAL. or NO GOAL.

The issue with that would they're in a stadium full of noise relying on Comms. Where Offside will sound an awful lot like Onside as will Goal and No Goal

 

[raymondo]

The issue with that would they're in a stadium full of noise relying on Comms. Where Offside will sound an awful lot like Onside as will Goal and No Goal

They could put the decision on the screen for all to see... including the ref

 

[Mellotron]

But that's not always the case, Dunk's free kick v West Brom a few years ago

Don't think that was the same, was it?

What I'm saying here is once a VAR check is complete and play resumes, it can't be restarted.

 

[Bozza]

So the VAR actually made the right call to allow the goal, as Diaz was clearly onside. But then crucially all he communicated to the ref was "check over", having not realised that the lino had (wrongly) flagged for offside. So the ref just went along with "check over" as reinforcing the onfield decision of offside as correct, when it wasn't.

I mean, that is absolutely ASTONISHING incompetence on a biblical scale. Could the ref not have simply asked "ok check over - so offside then ?" to clarify ? Could the VAR, then having seen the ref wrongly award a free kick to Spurs instead of the goal, not have just said "hang on Hoops - its a goal, he was well onside" ?

What in the name of flying frig is going on with these people.

On the Football Ramble podcast today, one of the panel suggested they follow the cricket and rugby union example and have full open communications to discuss these things and the reason he stated for that, and I'd not really considered it before, was that they sort of follow a set script to go back-and-forth as they know everyone is listening.

By following a script, of sorts, it wouldn't have permitted Saturday's f***-up to occur.

 

[dazzer6666]

So the VAR actually made the right call to allow the goal, as Diaz was clearly onside. But then crucially all he communicated to the ref was "check over", having not realised that the lino had (wrongly) flagged for offside. So the ref just went along with "check over" as reinforcing the onfield decision of offside as correct, when it wasn't.

I mean, that is absolutely ASTONISHING incompetence on a biblical scale. Could the ref not have simply asked "ok check over - so offside then ?" to clarify ? Could the VAR, then having seen the ref wrongly award a free kick to Spurs instead of the goal, not have just said "hang on Hoops - its a goal, he was well onside" ?

What in the name of flying frig is going on with these people.

Correct. This is where rugby (for example) have nailed it - even the language the ref and TMO use is restricted so there is zero confusion about what is being reviewed, why it's being reviewed and what the decision is. Heard several people on TV and radio today basically saying there are no real protocols and way too much 'chatter'............it's still mind-boggling that this happened though.

 

[RandyWanger]

"Liverpool ask PGMOL for VAR audio from Luis Diaz disallowed goal"

Not backing down yet

 

[Ooh it’s a corner]

I agree with most of your post. But try selling that hand ball argument to the Welsh fans who watch Thierry Henri punch out their qualification lights a few years ago. VAR would have rightly ruled that goal out.

And I like VAR being used for penalties. There was a shit handball rubric (process/rules) which has been changed. Technology revealed that rules were unclear. The rules therefore get tweaked. This has always been how football has worked, from the days before offside till today. Systematic problems are usually due to ambiguity in the rules. The words need to map to a decision making process. Things are improving and further improvements will happen.

Maybe he did it against Wales too but the big Henry handball was against Ireland I think - denying them qualification to finals of WC/Euros(can’t recall which) - I think anyway