The EU- the definitive NSC referendum

[daveinprague]

You really don't know much do you...our biggest earner is Finance/Banking...why do you think the EU want to move banking into central Europe?

If you check back, you will see what I asked. Thanks for your attention and patronizing response.

'Apart from financial services, and contracting British troops out to fight American wars, what does Britain offer the world, if we are to leave the EU, and become an independent economy?'

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

it could be brilliant in the EU

It bloody well is. I'm living it 24/7 and chose to live at the heart of the EU. You could have all of this as well if you wanted.

I hear what you are saying regarding "Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain" BUT I do not feel their current financial woes are down to the EU per se. Spain and Greece governemnts borrowed heavily to invest and when the recession hit they suffered badly. Their ability to borrow was brought on by EU membership but the EU did not hold a gun to their heads and tell them to borrow. I have credit card limits and and overdraft facility but it's my choice whether I use them. And it is not as though non-EU countries are not suffering. It's a world wide issue and not directly linked to the EU membership.

 

[cunning fergus]

Jesus. You have been blathering away around the clock for over 3 days on the various EU threads, reciting the same stuff. Do you not have anything better to do? Like sleep for example? Do you not have a job or friends or family to entertain?

I note you have over 22,000 posts on NSC, run this by me again?

Feel free to point me to a post with "blather".............

 

[cunning fergus]

It bloody well is. I'm living it 24/7 and chose to live at the heart of the EU. You could have all of this as well if you wanted.

I hear what you are saying regarding "Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain" BUT I do not feel their current financial woes are down to the EU per se. Spain and Greece governemnts borrowed heavily to invest and when the recession hit they suffered badly. Their ability to borrow was brought on by EU membership but the EU did not hold a gun to their heads and tell them to borrow. I have credit card limits and and overdraft facility but it's my choice whether I use them. And it is not as though non-EU countries are not suffering. It's a world wide issue and not directly linked to the EU membership.

Tell me what you think, not what you "feel"..............only one is a means to arrive at a coherently considered view.

You are an avowed europhile with a internationalist outlook, it really is not conceivable ideologically for you to consider that the UK could prosper outside the EU. That, despite all your blather, is a possibility. Beyond earnest supposition you cannot unequivocally prove otherwise.

We can though look at history and events have proven that membership of the EU does not guarantee economic success, and even if your analysis was correct about the recession (which it is not) the EU was still not a mechanism able to protect its membership and more importantly the underlying electorate.

As you know the EU's answer to all of these chaos is deeper integration, but then it always is. That attitude chimes with your own ideology on this matter so any view that attacks that view are disregarded (see thread on democracy).

Fact is you don't really want a mature debate on this, that's why reasonable criticisms are dismissed out of hand. Little wonder politicians in the UK and elsewhere hold their electorates in such contempt.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Tell me what you think, not what you "feel"..............only one is a means to arrive at a coherently considered view.

What I "feel" is brought about by many elements...one of them is what I think.

Fact is you don't really want a mature debate on this

I do not want any debate on this subject to be honest. Hence I just chime in with a few posts here and there. I have better things to do with my time than have the same discussion I have had on this site many times before. If you want my views look up my previous posts on this subject in the search facility. To be honest I am beyond caring what you and others think about the EU as I have left the UK. Do what you want, at the end of the day it does not really affect me or bother me anymore.

 

[cunning fergus]

It bloody well is. I'm living it 24/7 and chose to live at the heart of the EU. You could have all of this as well if you wanted.

I hear what you are saying regarding "Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain" BUT I do not feel their current financial woes are down to the EU per se. Spain and Greece governemnts borrowed heavily to invest and when the recession hit they suffered badly. Their ability to borrow was brought on by EU membership but the EU did not hold a gun to their heads and tell them to borrow. I have credit card limits and and overdraft facility but it's my choice whether I use them. And it is not as though non-EU countries are not suffering. It's a world wide issue and not directly linked to the EU membership.

Tell me what you think, not what you "feel"..............only one is a means to arrive at a coherently considered view.

You are an avowed europhile with a internationalist outlook, it really is not conceivable ideologically for you to consider that the UK could prosper outside the EU. That, despite all your blather, is a possibility. Beyond earnest supposition you cannot unequivocally prove otherwise.

We can though look at history and events have proven that membership of the EU does not guarantee economic success, and even if your analysis was correct about the recession (which it is not) the EU was still not a mechanism able to protect its membership and more importantly the underlying electorate.

As you know the EU's answer to all of these chaos is deeper integration, but then it always is. That attitude chimes with your own ideology on this matter so any view that attacks that view are disregarded (see thread on democracy).

Fact is you don't really want a mature debate on this, that's why reasonable criticisms are dismissed out of hand. Little wonder politicians in the UK and elsewhere hold their electorates in such contempt.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I note you have over 22,000 posts on NSC, run this by me again?

Feel free to point me to a post with "blather".............

True. But this does not alter the fact YOU have been rabidly posting horrendously lengthy pieces on the current EU threads 24/7 for 4 days now.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Tell me what you think, not what you "feel"..............only one is a means to arrive at a coherently considered view.

You are an avowed europhile with a internationalist outlook, it really is not conceivable ideologically for you to consider that the UK could prosper outside the EU. That, despite all your blather, is a possibility. Beyond earnest supposition you cannot unequivocally prove otherwise.

We can though look at history and events have proven that membership of the EU does not guarantee economic success, and even if your analysis was correct about the recession (which it is not) the EU was still not a mechanism able to protect its membership and more importantly the underlying electorate.

As you know the EU's answer to all of these chaos is deeper integration, but then it always is. That attitude chimes with your own ideology on this matter so any view that attacks that view are disregarded (see thread on democracy).

Fact is you don't really want a mature debate on this, that's why reasonable criticisms are dismissed out of hand. Little wonder politicians in the UK and elsewhere hold their electorates in such contempt.

See, I told you that you were repeating yourself!

 

[cunning fergus]

True. But this does not alter the fact YOU have been rabidly posting horrendously lengthy pieces on the current EU threads 24/7 for 4 days now.

That's true, however the devil is in the detail............I know this because I spend a significant proportion of my working time dealing with EU regulation, imagine what my analysis are like.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It bloody well is. I'm living it 24/7 and chose to live at the heart of the EU. You could have all of this as well if you wanted.

I hear what you are saying regarding "Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain" BUT I do not feel their current financial woes are down to the EU per se. Spain and Greece governemnts borrowed heavily to invest and when the recession hit they suffered badly. Their ability to borrow was brought on by EU membership but the EU did not hold a gun to their heads and tell them to borrow. I have credit card limits and and overdraft facility but it's my choice whether I use them. And it is not as though non-EU countries are not suffering. It's a world wide issue and not directly linked to the EU membership.

But the EU did turn a blind eye to enforcing it's own rules which worsened the situation for those countries.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But the EU did turn a blind eye to enforcing it's own rules which worsened the situation for those countries.

Did it? Ireland has just completed its austerity program and they are talking quite positively about their future.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's true, however the devil is in the detail............I know this because I spend a significant proportion of my working time dealing with EU regulation, imagine what my analysis are like.

What industry do you work in? And it also depends on your outlook. My industry is heavily regulated, and for the good. The EU does a hell of a lot of good for my work and the regulations have streamlined a lot of what we do. One particular process saves millions and has the potential to earn many more millions due to the time saved. Telecoms R&D is another industry which, from discussions with people in the field, I understand benefits enormously from EU regulation.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

retaining our national identity ......... You couldn't make it up
regards
DR

I am not making it up. Do you seriously think that a seriously integrated EU would mean that the average british person would become indistinguishable from the average Portugese or Romanian. Is the average Texan indistinguishable from the average New Yorker - they do live in the same country, after all. That is what I mean by "national identity".

If you take national identity to be about making our own laws and maintaining our own borders, I would accept that is a different matter, but I am not concerned about that.

 

[cunning fergus]

Did it? Ireland has just completed its austerity program and they are talking quite positively about their future.

Doesnt that depend on your underlying ideology?

Curently the UK's economy is starting to perform strongly following the catasptrophe of Labour's management, and economists are talking positively about the UK's future.............your posts on here constantly attacking the tories would indicate you disagree with that analysis.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/dec/26/britain-europe-top-economy-by-2030

In Ireland where austerity has been harsher than we could imagine (see Croke Park agreement) because of mis managemnt by the Irish Govt and the EU, and who have merely taken the first step in taking control back from the unelected IMF you seem to consider that is some kind of sucess story?

http://www.theguardian.com/business...-exit-not-end-ireland-financial-crisis-noonan

A 13% unemployment rate, falling wages and catastrophic personal debt levels mean only the most positiveof optimists would be positive about the future of Ireland.

 

[Kumquat]

Did it? Ireland has just completed its austerity program and they are talking quite positively about their future.

I think WS means before. Greece for example lied about being able to pay off it's debts and the EU either knew it couldn't pay but was persuaded to lend them the money or didn't know in which case it's processes in plave were pony. Now most experts I've read think it's the former. The UK has a vested interest in widening the EU to make it less likely to become a federal state, so also turned a blind eye.

Personally, I believe in a european union and us being part of it, but the way it's been run at the behest of almost all countries involved has only resulted in it becoming hated. If the UK votes to pull out of Europe, successive Governments in this country will only have themselves to blame.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Doesnt that depend on your underlying ideology?

Curently the UK's economy is starting to perform strongly following the catasptrophe of Labour's management, and economists are talking positively about the UK's future.............your posts on here constantly attacking the tories would indicate you disagree with that analysis.

Yes I do disagree. The economy is not performing strongly; if you think otherwise you are in cloud-cuckoo-land. Just ask Mark Carney, fragile is the work he regularly uses.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

A 13% unemployment rate, falling wages and catastrophic personal debt levels mean only the most positiveof optimists would be positive about the future of Ireland.

It's all relative. Clearly it's not going to be milk and honey but they have turned a corner and are now moving slowly in the right direction. The only difference between your evaluation of Ireland and the UK is 13% vs 7-ish% unemployment....and you claim the UK economy is strong!

 

[dingodan]

Not only should we leave the EU, we should all join ICELAND.

iceland-prosecutor-investigates-convicts-bankers-for-financial-crimes

world-economic-news-icelands-economy-now-growing-faster-than-US-and-EU

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Did it? Ireland has just completed its austerity program and they are talking quite positively about their future.

I'm trying to find a link to the programme I saw that explained this ( either Panaroma or Dispatches ) but can't. Basically Spain, Greece and Italy couldn't / wouldn't conform to the requirements for joining the Euro - spending versus GDP and things like that - and rather than exclude these countries from the Euro the EU decided to ignore the issues. Some commentators believe this was a major contributor to the Euro crisis. Personally I see it as highlighting the the EU's political drive to complete integration regardless of consequences. The Eupropean experiment mustn't be allowed to fail ....... at ANY cost. That's why it doesn't bother the EU that it's accounts haven't been passed by auditors for years - why should it bother them ? After all, THEY run and own Europe.

 

[cunning fergus]

It's all relative. Clearly it's not going to be milk and honey but they have turned a corner and are now moving slowly in the right direction. The only difference between your evaluation of Ireland and the UK is 13% vs 7-ish% unemployment....and you claim the UK economy is strong!

I agree everything is relative.

UK performance in last 3 years is terrible relative to 2000 - 08. However, we know that that performance in 2005 -08 was based on an out of control economy that was dangerously overheating with personal debt and unsustainable house prices. Lest we forget the end of boom and bust and Ed Balls apology for his part in the catastrophe.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/sep/12/mps-shocked-ed-balls-says-sorry

UK performance and austerity in last 3 years relative to Ireland is in a different ball park, UK performance has been far stronger and austerity less harsh. We have not had anywhere near the same levels of wage cuts or property devaluation.

http://www.thejournal.ie/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-croke-park-agreement-509564-Jul2012/

But then Ireland relative to Cyprus is also in a different ball park, in Cyprus this year if the economy shrinks by 13% then that would be considered a success.

http://www.ibtimes.com/euro-zone-co...-what-about-italy-greece-cyprus-who-all-still

So the facts are relative to other EU countries the UK is performing strongly, unlike France will are not introducing 75% tax and unlike Italy the Police are not on strike.

I wouldnt say that it was an overwhelming success but relative to Labour's management and other EU countries its acceptable.

Its interesting that its these economic basket cases that some people want to tie the UK economy to.

I would let the Germans keep it.