Syrian asylum-seeker with machete kills woman in southern Germany

[The Clamp]

Once again you're missing the point. Saying a tiny % of Muslims commit the crimes does not mean that a far larger % don't support their ideology and actions.

And really? The ordinary Germans knew all about the hatred of the Jews (because it was printed in newspapers...) and they still supported Hitler. You know how we know this? Because there were a few dissidents who spoke out against it. So if they knew, the majoirty of Germans did.

Who is not speaking up against IS? Who is "going along" with their terrorist activities?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Chamberlain was wrong, history tells us that, he did gamble with lives. Any process like that is a gamble. A gamble he lost. Its incomparable to how we deal with Muslim extremists. You are wrong on this point.

Point of fact I have never said, typed or believed "Islam is a race". I did accuse a poster of racism when I should have accused them of religious intolerance instead. BIG difference.

He didn't lose anything. Millions of people however lost their lives.

It is comparable because instead fo speaking out and denouncing a backwards ideology we have people defending something that has no place in western society in this centruy.

Even the moderates are backwards people.

The rest of your response is just plain ignorant and I cant be arsed to break it down. It's just a repetitive, ill informed, poorly written, uneducated shambles.

Although I would be interested in you citing these thousands of moderate Muslims who have turned to extremism. I don't doubt there are cases, just curious as to how you know it's thousands and where you got this figure from?

It is estimated that over 27,000 foreign fighters have travelled to Iraq and Syria since fighting broke out in 2011.

There are approximately 6,000 people from Europe - with the most fighters leaving France, Germany and the UK.

There is no reason to be an extremist in Europe. Thus thousands of moderates turned to exteremism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-many-foreign-fighters-are-fighting-for-isil/

Seeing as you're putting yourself out there as being Mr Informed how can you not know of these thousands of people from Europe turning extremist?

Me thinks you can't be arsed because you're talking out of your arse.

 

[Hastings gull]

It is hypothetical that this policy has made it easier. This asylum seeker was in the country before the policy happened. Neither you or I know whether those given a home in Germany will feel an affection for the country and help root out extremism within their communities, or whether it will harbour them. The 2 incidents in Germany were a bizarre right wing inspired German national and an asylum seeker who'd been their some time. So one can't be quite sure at all.

It is hardly hypothetical is it? The policy has not just happened, as there has been a steady trickle for years. The only difference between now and what had gone before, is that the numbers are so much bigger and have jumped up so quickly. Yes, the perpetrator was in the country before the surge of last summer, but he too was let in! And what was his thanks? And significantly you fail to mention the others. Of course we cannot totally predict the future, but do you seriously believe this very naïve argument that all will be well, if they feel welcome? Yes, I am sure you are right in that it will help matters if the migrants feel valued, but there will always be some who do not progress, and find it easy to blame others/Bush and Blair/ provocative clothing/right-wing nutters/discrimination/ and consequent solace in the welcoming arms of some imam preaching hate.

 

[The Clamp]

He didn't lose anything. Millions of people however lost their lives.

It is comparable because instead fo speaking out and denouncing a backwards ideology we have people defending something that has no place in western society in this centruy.

Even the moderates are backwards people.



It is estimated that over 27,000 foreign fighters have travelled to Iraq and Syria since fighting broke out in 2011.

There are approximately 6,000 people from Europe - with the most fighters leaving France, Germany and the UK.

There is no reason to be an extremist in Europe. Thus thousands of moderates turned to exteremism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-many-foreign-fighters-are-fighting-for-isil/

Seeing as you're putting yourself out there as being Mr Informed how can you not know of these thousands of people from Europe turning extremist?

Me thinks you can't be arsed because you're talking out of your arse.

I don't say I'm Mr Informed. You said that.

I disagree that Chamberlain's policy of appeasement is comparable to how IS are being treated now.
an estimated 27'000 have travelled to fight abroad. Well, they're not moderate then are they. And who is trying to appease them?


You realise that some estimated 7'000 Christians have converted to Islam in the UK, some of those have gone on to fight for ISIL. By your logic, all Christians are now a terror risk.


Okay, have I got this right?

You believe the majority of Muslims have the capacity to be radicalised?

You think that by affording moderate Muslims freedom of movement, the right to practice their religion, human rights and sanctuary we are appeasing IS?

You equate this with British and France's policy of appeasement to avoid war?


My guess is that you basically don't like muslims and you would like to see them strictly controlled. Which would have more in common with Hitler's policy towards Jews that Chamberlain's policy toward Hitler.

Very unpleasant.

 

[JCL666]

Even the moderates are backwards people.

We are not going to agree and this one bit is why there is little point in continuing the conversation.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It is hardly hypothetical is it? The policy has not just happened, as there has been a steady trickle for years. The only difference between now and what had gone before, is that the numbers are so much bigger and have jumped up so quickly. Yes, the perpetrator was in the country before the surge of last summer, but he too was let in! And what was his thanks? And significantly you fail to mention the others. Of course we cannot totally predict the future, but do you seriously believe this very naïve argument that all will be well, if they feel welcome? Yes, I am sure you are right in that it will help matters if the migrants feel valued, but there will always be some who do not progress, and find it easy to blame others/Bush and Blair/ provocative clothing/right-wing nutters/discrimination/ and consequent solace in the welcoming arms of some imam preaching hate.

I've not once said I agreed wholeheartedly with the article. I have refuted anyone who is so steadfast in their opinion that they can dismiss alternative views so easily, or even refer to it as deluded. It is an extremely complex situation that is not solved, as you say, by easily attributing blame.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Who is not speaking up against IS? Who is "going along" with their terrorist activities?

Who is speaking up about the backwards ideologies of Islam? That's where the discussion should be.

Forget about IS. Focus on the Ideology itself.

If you want to Islam to change then it needs to have all it's beliefs and views laid bare for all to see just as every other religion has had done to it for the last 50 years.

They need to be embarrassed and shamed into reforming their beliefs and ideas. That's what was done to the Catholic Church, that's what needs to be done Islam.

Can they do it? Or do they prove to be the biggest group of backwards people on the planet.

 

[The Clamp]

Who is speaking up about the backwards ideologies of Islam? That's where the discussion should be.

Forget about IS. Focus on the Ideology itself.

If you want to Islam to change then it needs to have all it's beliefs and views laid bare for all to see just as every other religion has had done to it for the last 50 years.

They need to be embarrassed and shamed into reforming their beliefs and ideas. That's what was done to the Catholic Church, that's what needs to be done Islam.

Can they do it? Or do they prove to be the biggest group of backwards people on the planet.

Even though you have answers none of my questions you have good me all I need to know. See ya.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I don't say I'm Mr Informed. You said that.

I disagree that Chamberlain's policy of appeasement is comparable to how IS are being treated now.
an estimated 27'000 have travelled to fight abroad. Well, they're not moderate then are they. And who is trying to appease them?

But they were moderate. There's simply no excuse to turn to extremism if you live in a western society, not in that great a number.

Okay, have I got this right?

You believe the majority of Muslims have the capacity to be radicalised?

You think that by affording moderate Muslims freedom of movement, the right to practice their religion, human rights and sanctuary we are appeasing IS?

You equate this with British and France's policy of appeasement to avoid war?

I do equate it to the start of what happened in Germany on the basis that when a dangereous ideology starts rearing its evil head the time to call it out, expose it, lay it bare for all to see is now.

Do not give it any legitimacy, do not let it get a foot hold and a place to grow until it shows it's willing to reform to what the rest of society expects.

My guess is that you basically don't like muslims and you would like to see them strictly controlled. Which would have more in common with Hitler's policy towards Jews that Chamberlain's policy toward Hitler.

Well it was no coincidence the Arab Muslim world was an ally to Hitler. They even visited germany in the 30's and took back Nazi views and incorporated them into Arab nationalism.

"The peoples of Islam will always be closer to us than, for example, France" said Hitler.

I would like to see them not be stuck in the dark ages. The other major religions have been changing and evolvingbecause most were forced to, time now for Islam to follow suite or face being constantly criticised and berated as those religions were.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Even though you have answers none of my questions you have good me all I need to know. See ya.

Is that even a sentence?

 

[The Clamp]

Is that even a sentence?

Apologies I was in a queue. I meant to type: Even though you have answered none of my questions you have told me all I need to know.

We won't agree on this and just go round in circles so goodbye for now,

 

[Deleted member 22389]

But they were moderate. There's simply no excuse to turn to extremism if you live in a western society, not in that great a number.



I do equate it to the start of what happened in Germany on the basis that when a dangereous ideology starts rearing its evil head the time to call it out, expose it, lay it bare for all to see is now.

Do not give it any legitimacy, do not let it get a foot hold and a place to grow until it shows it's willing to reform to what the rest of society expects.




Well it was no coincidence the Arab Muslim world was an ally to Hitler. They even visited germany in the 30's and took back Nazi views and incorporated them into Arab nationalism.

"The peoples of Islam will always be closer to us than, for example, France" said Hitler.

I would like to see them not be stuck in the dark ages. The other major religions have been changing and evolvingbecause most were forced to, time now for Islam to follow suite or face being constantly criticised and berated as those religions were.

It depends on what your definition is of being stuck in the dark ages. A modern Islam to me is one where people fully integrate and I mean fully, even removing the religious clothing, so women enjoy the freedoms and opportunities this country can offer them.

I'm afraid the reality is that the reverse is happening, with or without the extremist elements this country like many in Europe I think is heading towards a path of conservative Islam, with massive cultural changes coming our way. If Luton was anything to go by, then I don't know if it is going to work well enough and whether everybody is going to be happy enough to get on with it and whether like what happened people eventually sold up and left.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

It depends on what your definition is of being stuck in the dark ages. A modern Islam to me is one where people fully integrate and I mean fully, even removing the religious clothing, so women enjoy the freedoms and opportunities this country can offer them.

I'm afraid the reality is that the reverse is happening, with or without the extremist elements this country like many in Europe I think is heading towards a path of conservative Islam, with massive cultural changes coming our way. If Luton was anything to go by, then I don't know if it is going to work well enough and whether everybody is going to be happy enough to get on with it.

Modern Islam at this stage is an oxymoron. There is nothing modern about it in anyway.

You know you're a backwards ideology when even the Pope seems rather enlightened when compared to you.

 

[BadFish]

Your first para is an absurd over-statement, designed, presumably, to lend a bit of credence, as is your exaggerated comment about others assuming 1.6 billion have potential terrorist sympathies. Of course other muslims also live in fear of the fanatics, and yet again, you dwell on the misconception that others think that all muslims are terrorists - they do not. But TB's point is valid about how the terrorists reply on support from others, who may be comparatively moderate in that they disapprove of the methods, but not the aims. When my brother, as a young soldier, was patrolling the streets on Belfast, there were plenty of IRA sympathisers who banged their dustbin lids on the ground as a warning to gunmen that the Army was approaching. I have just been watching BBC News and a French journalist has just said that, in defence of the security forces there, there are 11,000 people in France with varying degrees of sympathy with IS, and they cannot keep tabs on them all. And these are the ones they know about.

It is pretty clear from posts on this thread that TG and others beleive that intolerance of anyone non-muslim and by extension jihad and potential terrorism are inherent in the Islamic faith. This was the stance I was countering and i don't think that they think all Muslims are terrorists.

The idea that all Muslims either are or are not terrorists is frankly as absurd as you suggesting that i think that there are no terrorist sympathizers among the Muslims around the world. Your problem is that you can only think in extremes and lack the ability to recognize nuanced discussion.

 

[Hastings gull]

It is pretty clear from posts on this thread that TG and others beleive that intolerance of anyone non-muslim and by extension jihad and potential terrorism are inherent in the Islamic faith. This was the stance I was countering and i don't think that they think all Muslims are terrorists.

The idea that all Muslims either are or are not terrorists is frankly as absurd as you suggesting that i think that there are no terrorist sympathizers among the Muslims around the world. Your problem is that you can only think in extremes and lack the ability to recognize nuanced discussion.

I don't ever recall having written that you think that there are no terrorist sympathisers around the world - why on earth do you come up with such rubbish? Your stance has always been that that the majority should not be punished/discriminated against for the sins of the minority. Are you that desperate to get one-up? Instead of pompously lecturing others about what you allege their problem to be, perhaps it would be better if you actually read and properly digest what others contribute rather than the all-too-quick one liners.

 

[Not nick rhodes]

But they were moderate. There's simply no excuse to turn to extremism if you live in a western society, not in that great a number.



I do equate it to the start of what happened in Germany on the basis that when a dangereous ideology starts rearing its evil head the time to call it out, expose it, lay it bare for all to see is now.

Do not give it any legitimacy, do not let it get a foot hold and a place to grow until it shows it's willing to reform to what the rest of society expects.




Well it was no coincidence the Arab Muslim world was an ally to Hitler. They even visited germany in the 30's and took back Nazi views and incorporated them into Arab nationalism.

"The peoples of Islam will always be closer to us than, for example, France" said Hitler.

I would like to see them not be stuck in the dark ages. The other major religions have been changing and evolvingbecause most were forced to, time now for Islam to follow suite or face being constantly criticised and berated as those religions were.

The post above from Tyrone hits the nail firmly on the head and is probably the most sensible, balanced and well written on this thread.

 

[beorhthelm]

The post above from Tyrone hits the nail firmly on the head and is probably the most sensible, balanced and well written on this thread.

if you're trying to do an Ernest impression, you need to add capitals. if you aren't being ironic, its bigoted and factually incoherent.

 

[Not nick rhodes]

if you're trying to do an Ernest impression, you need to add capitals. if you aren't being ironic, its bigoted and factually incoherent.

I'm certainly not being ironic or bigoted. This is the only major religion that a sizeable proportion of its people refuse to make efforts to integrate and a minority preach hatred and advocate violence. A minority of a religion that has over2 billion followers can be millions of people. Perhaps you have heard about the terror these people have spread over the last few days, weeks and years.

Yes it does need to reform and turn away from barbaric medieval behaviour. If you think there is nothing seriously wrong with this religion you must have been up in a space capsule for the last 15 years.

 

[symyjym]

I'm certainly not being ironic or bigoted. This is the only major religion that a sizeable proportion of its people refuse to make efforts to integrate and a minority preach hatred and advocate violence. A minority of a religion that has over2 billion followers can be millions of people. Perhaps you have heard about the terror these people have spread over the last few days, weeks and years.

Yes it does need to reform and turn away from barbaric medieval behaviour. If you think there is nothing seriously wrong with this religion you must have been up in a space capsule for the last 15 years.

Islam does not have 2 billion followers, at best they have1.6 billion, but probably more like 1.2 billion. Ex Muslims are still counted a Muslims.

Don't encourage a false belief that they are bigger than what they are, it only encourages their own propaganda.

 

[Hastings gull]

Islam does not have 2 billion followers, at best they have1.6 billion, but probably more like 1.2 billion. Ex Muslims are still counted a Muslims.

Don't encourage a false belief that they are bigger than what they are, it only encourages their own propaganda.

Ok whatever the actual number, it is a lot. As a matter of interest, and I am not having a dig in the slightest, but can you be an ex muslim? I imagine that this would not be a problem here and in other countries in Western Europe, but can you simply say "that's it, I am not coming again and don't believe all this rubbish" in a muslim country? Are you saying above that there are 4000,000 ex muslims?