Stewards - Thugs

[NMH]

So can you honestly say that the absolute minimum force was required?

I would hate to see these guys in action in a real emergency. God help us.

What in Buddha's name is "the absolute minimum force required"?

Restraint. Total and complete, inescapable restraint.
It's good for the farm, it's good for the farmer, and it's best for the creature being restrained. Less risk of further flight equals one safe captive all ready to hand over to the kind, fatherly hands of the old bill. Job done.

I don't think some of you are just upset because it's authority in action - I know you are.
It's not 'big brother' herding and controlling, cowing and castrating all your free wills - it's the handling of an arena filled with people, and looking after the best interests of all (including the miscreant).

He wasn't carried off on a pole like a stuck pig, complete with an apple in his mouth was he? Did you hear muffled cries before the coup de grace shots put an end to his young life?

 

[steward 433]

I have no issue with stewards stewarding but if this guy was a known troblemaker why was it left to a response steward who, with all due respect, has about 10% of the training, ability to make decisions, and powers, of a full-time police officer. It just leads to dangerous situations. If, for instance the steward unintentionally broke the guy's arm; he would be up before a court the very next day on an ABH charge. Or, if the guy became violent and lashed out at a steward who, as a result suffered an injury which prevented them from doing their daily job; would they want compensation from the club? The point is, when it comes to restraining or heavy physical contact with individuals, it is safer for all concerned if the situation is left to the police.

So you want to pay the extra it would cost to police ALL the games at Withdean next season then?

 

[paddy]

Are you happy to pay more for a ticket then as more than half of the games this year were police free and most response stewards work as security staff full time not just once every two weeks

Football matches are never police free. By law, there must always be a unit of police at the ground, in the event of an arrest or other major event, just as there is always an ambulance team and a senior fire officer.

 

[steward 433]

Football matches are never police free. By law, there must always be a unit of police at the ground, in the event of an arrest or other major event, just as there is always an ambulance team and a senior fire officer.

Source??

 

[paddy]

Source??

Serving police officer...

 

[NMH]

My observation, for what it's worth, on the steward who is getting all the stick for going over the top, is that the arm-lock and hand-hold that he was using were well-executed examples of restraint techniques that are TAUGHT on training courses. The hand-hold looks fierce, but it doesn't cause any damage to the hand. It is effective, because it enables the restrainer to respond easily to any attempt by the restrainee to struggle free, with a quick application of thumb pressure to the back of the hand that will hit a nerve and prevent the escape.

Ten years or so back, such restraint techniques were being taught to social services staff who had dealings with disturbed (and potentially violent) young people in care. These days, I think it is the fashion to deal with such situations differently.

Where some saw a violent intervention yesterday, I was struck by the fact that the steward involved seemed to be showing all the signs of having been trained to do precisely what he did.

Just like Roz practices on you every night, in your latex gimp suit.

 

[steward 433]

Serving police officer...

Incorrect

There is always a football liason officer there

Do NOT need a full ambulance there as long as a suitable trained prescence is there I.E. St Johns

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

From where I sit, fan ran on to speak/congratulate Kerry Mayo. Three stewards pursued him and brought him down as he reached Kerry (as is their job remit). Fan appeared okay about being lead away but was then put in a hand lock that looked very excessive use of force.

Looked bad on the stewards who could have dealt with the situation using tact rather than force. Saying that the bloke knows the rules and regs and the moment he goes on the pitch puts the club at risk. He was laughing as he was lead away so is obvioulsy happy with the fine or ban that may be dished out.

Thought the commentary on the Stoke game today was funny, saying how bad a pitch invasion by some fans was with the line 'and a man dressed up in a Mr Blobby suit is not getting off the pitch but walking around the centre circle'. Like to have seen them put an arm lock on Blobby.

 

[Questions]

That raises an interesting issue.

Do we want Withdean stewards to receive training in control and restraint techniques? Or do we want them to make it up as they go along?

I think "fascism" is characterised by the authorities being quite happy to employ mindless thugs to keep order. Sending people on training courses (which is my preferred solution) is normally thought of as being at the "woolly liberal" end of the spectrum.

The SAS go on ''Training courses'' as well but we dont want them stewarding our games.
Armlocks that can snap a violent assailants arm are for the police and their elite snatch squads and should not be taught to shaven headed, Rottweilers who masquerade as stewards at Withdean.

 

[paddy]

Incorrect

There is always a football liason officer there

Do NOT need a full ambulance there as long as a suitable trained prescence is there I.E. St Johns

All games a categorised either A, B, or C depending on how volatile the club and emergency services believe the situation could become. Do you seriously believe a football club would be allowed to have 6000 people in attendance and have one football liason officer. Even for a category C game there are a team of 3 or 4 police officers, although they only operate a visable presence if it is a category A game.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

The issue is not with the rugby tackle, rather the behaviour of the response steward who took it upon himself to steam in and assault a fan who, after being caught, was clearly prepared to walk off peacefully. The same steward then saw fit to give simmilar treatment to a fan who was merely pushed a couple of feet onto the running track. It is not in the stewards job description to act as a police force. If they believed the man who ran onto the pitch would try and escape in a violent manner, the police should have been called to detain him immediately, not leave it to a steward to man handle him over to where the police were standing.

Assult him how? - please explain what he did that you saw as an assult?

 

[Caveman]

The steward deserved a slap.

 

[paddy]

Assult him how? - please explain what he did that you saw as an assult?

Common Assault can be satisfied either when
(1) The individual causes the victim to apprehend immeidate and unlawful violence, or
(2) When an individual intentionally or recklessly applies force.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The SAS go on ''Training courses'' as well but we dont want them stewarding our games.
Armlocks that can snap a violent assailants arm are for the police and their elite snatch squads and should not be taught to shaven headed, Rottweilers who masquerade as stewards at Withdean.

The training courses that I am familiar with were aimed at local authority professionals dealing with school-age children. I dare say the SAS courses are rather different.

My point is that the RIGHT training needs to be given. A level appropriate to stewards is perfectly achievable.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There is a line of argument that if the offender HAD been dealt with appropriately then there would not be this level of debate about his treatment.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Very true. And they are all HOLOCAUST DENIERS too, of course, as you once called people who didn't share your opinion of a film.

No chance whatsoever. You're dead right: this is VINTAGE Gav. And that's to be appreciated.

I am glad I did not let you down Col

 

[Lord Bracknell]

There is a line of argument that if the offender HAD been dealt with appropriately then there would not be this level of debate about his treatment.

No doubt.

I was making the point that the restraint techniques that I saw in action yesterday seemed to me to be consistent with the techniques that I am familiar with (as an observer) from my knowledge of the training that used to be given to social services staff. To describe yesterday's events as an assault is not accurate.

 

[paddy]

The training courses that I am familiar with were aimed at local authority professionals dealing with school-age children. I dare say the SAS courses are rather different.

My point is that the RIGHT training needs to be given. A level appropriate to stewards is perfectly achievable.

Clearly stewards do not go on SAS training courses but the argument is still a good one. Whilst an appropriate and comprehensive training course is enough for dealing with school-age children, it is not for response stewards who are expected to deal with adults of all description in an inherently volatile atmosphere. As i have said before i have no issue with stewards 'stewarding' but when it comes to restraining individuals, matters should be left to a police officer who makes judgements on reasonable force and restraining techniques every day in varying situations. Leave it to the professionals.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Armlocks that can snap a violent assailants arm are for the police and their elite snatch squads and should not be taught to shaven headed, Rottweilers who masquerade as stewards at Withdean.

What a load of rubbish - is this the assult that people are referring to?

If you were a shop lifter for example, you would be detained by under cover security who would use an armlock to detain you until you could be taken somewhere to be held until the police arrived, or the bouncers at a club would use it to remove someone from a club if causing trouble.

The reason, it is the safest way to control someone who you are looking to detain, and is the widely used best practice, it minimises the risk of injury, relying on pressure points rather than brute force, and therefore also stops the detainee from fleeing when they feel that the opportunity exists, as would have probably happened if the pitch invader was just escorted to the police without any form of restraining.

What if, this guy after running to a couple of the players then ran upto the ref and punched him, what do you think the ramifications for the club would be, Points deductions, fines, playing behind closed doors? - surely better to apprehend a pitch invader as fast as you can and deal with them in a professional manner, the stewards are just doing their jobs.

 

[steward 433]

Clearly stewards do not go on SAS training courses but the argument is still a good one. Whilst an appropriate and comprehensive training course is enough for dealing with school-age children, it is not for response stewards who are expected to deal with adults of all description in an inherently volatile atmosphere. As i have said before i have no issue with stewards 'stewarding' but when it comes to restraining individuals, matters should be left to a police officer who makes judgements on reasonable force and restraining techniques every day in varying situations. Leave it to the professionals.

All response stewards are SIA trained which includes RESTRAINT as a must on the course which was APPROVED with the course co written by the SIA and the POLICE