[Politics] Should NATO send in troops and planes

[topbanana36]

What is the general feeling on NSC

Should NATO get involved with troops on the ground and planes in the air in Ukraine?

What think you? No fence option, that’s where we are at the moment…

NATO are already involved. They are sending weaponry via cargo ships and have been funding the neo-nazi national guard for years in the Donbas region. However, in terms of troops and planes absolutely no way.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You dont know the difference between UN and NATO.

Interesting.

I was half asleep and that’s my excuse. Yes it was the UN in Cyprus because Turkey & Greece were both NATO members

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

No idea what c*** invented nuclear weapons, but we have a lot to thank them for....

J. Robert Oppenheimer - he later had his security clearance revoked during the McCartyite whitchhunts because of pro-socialist sympathies - after he opposed futher development of nuclear weapons and indicated his support for the Bertrand Russell - Albert Einstein Manifesto.

Their very existence presents the most ridiculous scenario, the possible self destruction of the entire planet and all life upon it. The human race really includes a lot of absolute ******* imbeciles

This is why arguments about who has the larger nuclear arsenal and whether it is a deterrant are nonsensical - the consequences of any nuclear strike would be devastating for the planet and would have ongoing (very) long-term effects.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

apart from the imperialist US and UK, who do their own things anyway, which country in NATO has done this?

Wars involving France - Algeria, Korea, Indo-China, Cameroon, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Morocco (again), Algeria (again), Zaire, Chad, Libya, Rwanda, Gulf War, Somalia, kosovo, Afghanistan, Maghreb, Ivory Coast, Haiti, Somalia (again), Nigeria, Ivory Coast (again), Libya (again), Mali, Central African Republic, Iraq, Syria

Wars involving Belgium - Korea, Rwanda, Congo, Congo (again), Gulf War, Somalia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Libya

Wars involving Portugal (a fascist dictatorship until 1974 while a member of NATO) - India, East Timor, Angola, India (again), Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, Bosnia, Kosovo, Aghanistan, East Timor

Wars involving Greece - Korea, Congo, Cyprus, Gulf War, Bosnia, Somalia, Albania, Democratic Reubllic of Congo, Kosovo

I could go on - but I think that I have made the point.

and in what way did the superpower US on imperialist mission actually need the defense of the NATO? so we can put those missions into "not NATO" pile, and the defense of the members into the "NATO" pile.

it is about exercising political, military and economic influence (and no small measure of profit for the military-industrial complex).

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Unfortunately sending in troops or having a no fly zone over the Ukraine, potentially leading to us having to shoot a Russian plane down would massively escalate things and lead to a potential WW3 or worse Nuclear War.

For the time being we (basically the rest of the world) just have to help Ukraine and any other non NATO country PUTIN wants to invade with unlimited arms, medicines, food, cash all whilst tightening sanctions.

Apart for humanitarian relief - the most important thing that people can do is engage in an anti-war movement devoid of anti-Russian xenophobia - to encourage the growth of anti-war protests and opposition protests in Russia. Stuff like banning the works of Dostoyevsky and other classical Russian writers from universities, or posting nonsensical articles about the supposed pro-Putin sympathies of the RMT are the exact opposite of what is needed.

Putin is far move vulnerable to social movements at home than he is of military threat from NATO (which would boost his support in Russia).

 

[The Clamp]

what is the number printed inside your shoe indicating the size of shoe most comfortable for you...??

i can't put it any other way...

Why would one want to know such a thing? Did you want my old shoes once I’m gone? I’ll leave them outside the Welly in Shoreham for you. Seems appropriate.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

However I think the US is in a different position. It would take a president with the courage of JFK to do so but they could independently, (not as a NATO force), go into Ukraine and make the same threat against Russia as made by them. Retaliate with nukes and Russia will be annihilated.

I presume you are talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis (which you clearly din't know the history of) - a crisis that was prompted by the US-backed Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

No mate, it really isn't. Countries like Iceland, Luxembourg and Lithuania are tiny, and really add nothing militarily to the might of NATO, but their membership adds to the stability of Europe, which is good for all.

Iceland has a strategic military position in the North Atlantic - Lithuania borders Russia - and Luxembourg is the administrative centre for the EU and also an important base for strategic operations of NATO AWACs

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I presume you are talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis (which you clearly din't know the history of) - a crisis that was prompted by the US-backed Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

Prompted by the Russians attempting to put nuclear weapons in Cuba

Prompted by America putting weapons (could be nuclear, can't recall, doesn't matter) in Turkey

Prompted by Russian hanging on to occupied bits of Europe after the war

Prompted by fear of a resurgence of Hitlerism

Prompted by . . . . .

As Basil Fawlty said . . . .

I think we can all agree that Putin's adventure has nothing to do with a genuine fear of invasion by The West. It's simply his Orwellian strategy for keeping his own proles quite, while he and his chums gorge on money, hookers and drugs.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Prompted by the Russians attempting to put nuclear weapons in Cuba

After the failed Bay of Pigs invasion

I think we can all agree that Putin's adventure has nothing to do with a genuine fear of invasion by The West.

Agreed

It's simply his Orwellian strategy for keeping his own proles quite, while he and his chums gorge on money, hookers and drugs.

It is prompted by the miperialist power-play underway involving the four big power-blocs - NATO - EU - Russia - China - and the Russian regimes belief that they are losing out on strategic political, military and economic influence because of the advances of NATO and the EU in Eastern Europe and the Chinese in Africa.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

A relevant image -

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Who benefits from War -

And who loses from war -

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kentucky-teachers-retirement-fund-lost-3m-selling-investment-russian-b-rcna18781

 

[Blue3]

We should not act or be afraid of Russia, while we cannot send military personnel but we could and should support the Ukrainians with what ever they require to defend themselves, but how we can restore some air power I have no idea they need planes pilots and ground support without boots on the ground

 

[Hugo Rune]

We should not act or be afraid of Russia, while we cannot send military personnel but we could and should support the Ukrainians with what ever they require to defend themselves, but how we can restore some air power I have no idea they need planes pilots and ground support without boots on the ground

Think that has to be a longer term strategy.

We could train Ukrainian pilots and ground crew NOW in the UK then give them the requisite planes etc (the good stuff that is superior to Russian hardware) on a buy-now pay later deal. Could take a number of weeks or months though.

 

[Baker lite]

Think that has to be a longer term strategy.

We could train Ukrainian pilots and ground crew NOW in the UK then give them the requisite planes etc (the good stuff that is superior to Russian hardware) on a buy-now pay later deal. Could take a number of weeks or months though.

Years more likely.
Although I do agree to an extent, sadly, just as the Polish during WW2 fled to Britain to retrain and fight the Germans, it looks increasingly likely Ukrainian forces will need to do the same.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It is prompted by the miperialist power-play underway involving the four big power-blocs - NATO - EU - Russia - China - and the Russian regimes belief that they are losing out on strategic political, military and economic influence because of the advances of NATO and the EU in Eastern Europe and the Chinese in Africa.

What do you see Putin's end game to be? Do you think once he has annexed the East of Ukrain he will stop, and the west will then remove sanctions?

If the west does not remove sanctions won't this start to hurt the people in Russia?

How long can Putin continue to run he country with a law that puts you in Jail for 15 years for listening to foreign radio or reading foreign web pages? Or will ce recreate the closed world of Hoxa's Albania just for the Russian poor?

The invasion does not seem very strategic to me. Perhaps Putin is far far smarter than me, though.

And what do you think we should do about this? Fight it, ignore it or applaud it?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Years more likely.
Although I do agree to an extent, sadly, just as the Polish during WW2 fled to Britain to retrain and fight the Germans, it looks increasingly likely Ukrainian forces will need to do the same.

And given the majority of Ukrainian refugees are fleeing to Poland, which already has a large Ukrainian community I suspect this will be the main base for the retraining and fighting back, if necessary..

 

[Baker lite]

And given the majority of Ukrainian refugees are fleeing to Poland, which already has a large Ukrainian community I suspect this will be the main base for the retraining and fighting back, if necessary..

Indeed, although some may come to the UK, for specific training at either UK or US air bases, I’d be very surprised if this is not at the advanced planning stage, it will need Ukrainian forces to eventually win back their freedom.

 

[Baldseagull]

Iceland has a strategic military position in the North Atlantic - Lithuania borders Russia - and Luxembourg is the administrative centre for the EU and also an important base for strategic operations of NATO AWACs

Lithuania borders Belarus, but not Russia, same thing to some extent I suppose. Iceland is strategically important, but it chooses to be a member because it wants to keep it's independence, Iceland has no Army, just a coastguard which is lightly armed. Crimea is now under Russian control, because it is strategically important. NATO really is not the beast you think it is, Russia is a member of it's Partnership for Peace Organisation and has taken part in military exercises with NATO forces in the past under that.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

What do you see Putin's end game to be? Do you think once he has annexed the East of Ukrain he will stop, and the west will then remove sanctions?

If the west does not remove sanctions won't this start to hurt the people in Russia?

How long can Putin continue to run he country with a law that puts you in Jail for 15 years for listening to foreign radio or reading foreign web pages? Or will ce recreate the closed world of Hoxa's Albania just for the Russian poor?

The invasion does not seem very strategic to me. Perhaps Putin is far far smarter than me, though.

And what do you think we should do about this? Fight it, ignore it or applaud it?

It is very difficulty to see how this will all play out.

Russia is capable of 'conquering' Ukraine militarily - the problem is that they will be unable to hold it on a military basis for any extended period of time - as has been said there will be an ongoing insurgency against military occupation.

I think that the strategy of the Putin regime is to install a pro-Russian regime (similar to that which existed pre-maidan) - and occupy the Donbass. But, inevitably, this will be unstable as well.

The reality is that this war has developed out of political instability in the region going back years - and instability in Russia with Putin losing support.

The best case scenario is that there is a popular uprising/movement that removes Putin - the problem then is what replaces him.

We live in an increasingly unstable geo-political world - with a pull-back from globalisation - further exaspirated by the covid pandemic. The four different power blocs are increasingly coming into conflict as they all attempt to extend and exert their influence. The reality is that the coming period is far more unstable politically than the cold war was - precisely because Stalinism was much mroe insular than Putin's regime and more concerned with protecting its own power-base than extending globally (when it could avoid it)..