[Football] Saudi consortium to take over Newcastle

[The Fish]

1. Nobody here is trying to argue that Mike Ashley was anybody's dream club custodian - but the picture you paint of an inevitable spiral into oblivion is not based on anything tangible at all -merely on your dislike of him. He owned the club for 14(?) years, and he's financed things to the extent that you were in the Premier League for all but two of those seasons - and in both cases of relegation, he kept most of the PL squad together and you got immediately promoted back up. To suggest he'd suddenly withdraw that level of backing, if you went down again, doesn't stack up at all.

The lack of investment in infrastructure is valid, but not close to being so pressing that it represented any risk, in waiting a bit longer if necessary for a different buyer. Not that Ashley cared who the buyer was - he gave zeros ****s about the club's integrity (that part is YOUR job).

We were £100m in debt to Ashley, he had stated he wasn't going to fund us going forward and that we had to 'wipe our own nose'. We didn't have the saleable assets at the beginning of the season so had we gone down (which we would have under Bruce) we would have had neither the coach to get us up, or the players to fund the wholesale changes required to get promotion. We all know how difficult it is to get out of the Championship and how it only gets harder. The longer we stayed out of the top flight and with an owner unwilling to fund a return, a crowd already walking away from the club, a decrepit academy and training ground, and an incompetent coach in charge. The number of suitors would only diminish too. That club is only going one way. Make no mistake, Newcastle United were in big trouble.

2. We are crystal clear. You supported a takeover. There was at the time ONE takeover option, and you supported it. You supported THIS takeover.

I supported a takeover, I didn't, don't and won't support the Saudis owning any club.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I supported a takeover, I didn't, don't and won't support the Saudis owning any club.

There was, at the time, only one takeover bid on the table. You supported it.

Because, as per your own words above, under Ashley you faced the possibility of a season or two in the doldrums.

The only logical conclusion is that a struggling Newcastle United was worse to you than a Newcastle United owned by murderers as a sportswashing tool.

 

[Icy Gull]

We were £100m in debt to Ashley, he had stated he wasn't going to fund us going forward and that we had to 'wipe our own nose'. We didn't have the saleable assets at the beginning of the season so had we gone down (which we would have under Bruce) we would have had neither the coach to get us up, or the players to fund the wholesale changes required to get promotion. We all know how difficult it is to get out of the Championship and how it only gets harder. The longer we stayed out of the top flight and with an owner unwilling to fund a return, a crowd already walking away from the club, a decrepit academy and training ground, and an incompetent coach in charge. The number of suitors would only diminish too. That club is only going one way. Make no mistake, Newcastle United were in big trouble.

I supported a takeover, I didn't, don't and won't support the Saudis owning any club.

It's a personal thing but I would rather we got relegated twice than went down the road you have. I may be being starry eyed here but I think there would have been/would be large and loud demonstrations from Albion fans if we were ever put in the same position. Not saying it couldn't happen (although highly unlikely) and that it would make a difference but there would not be a plethora of fans celebrating and wearing tea towels on their heads....I hope!

 

[The Fish]

There was, at the time, only one takeover bid on the table. You supported it.

Because, as per your own words above, under Ashley you faced the possibility of a season or two in the doldrums.

The only logical conclusion is that a struggling Newcastle United was worse to you than a Newcastle United owned by murderers as a sportswashing tool.

That isn't the only logical conclusion, not by a long shot. It's reductive and wilfully ignorant, it's provocative and seeks only to divide into two camps. Life isn't black and white (pun unintended).

My words didn't suggest I was talking about a couple of season in the doldrums, I was talking about a future where top flight football is nothing but a pipedream. A future where generations of fans turn to Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool or -spit- Sunderland.

For you to understand why the fans were willing to accept this takeover, you need to understand the mood in Newcastle, the feelings towards the club, the precedent set elsewhere, the options available and the behaviours of all parties involved at the time. The PL, the Government, the FA all accepted the separation between PIF and KSA, they shouldn't have. Ashley had several interested parties, but he wanted the one that opened the door to the Middle East for his retail empire, he wanted the one that would pay the full sum and up front.

We're told by fans of clubs they would 100% not accept these owners, and sure there may be some, but they'd be surprised at how many of their fellow fans would, even those who had previously stated as fact that they could never. But because it's highly unlikely for it to happen in the same way, they're safely ensconced in their imagined perfection.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

That isn't the only logical conclusion, not by a long shot.
.

You supported a takeover? Yes.
How many takeovers were on the table? One
Did you withdraw you support? No
Ergo, you did support THIS takeover. Literally this IS the only logical conclusion. It just more comfortable for you to pretend otherwise.

Newcastle fans were faced with two choices - protest the takeover and withdraw their support if it happened, or ignore the unpleasantness and welcome the new owners' boundless wealth and the subsequent sporting glory.

You somehow want to revel in the new era on the field, while simultaneously clinging to a pretence that you opposed it on moral grounds.

My words didn't suggest I was talking about a couple of season in the doldrums, I was talking about a future where top flight football is nothing but a pipedream. A future where generations of fans turn to Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool or -spit- Sunderland.

So ****ing what? You are preaching here to a fanbase that have actually LIVED all that, and worse, and come out the other side with our integrity intact. The size of your fanbase means that however low Ashley took you, you'd always have found a way back.

The PL, the Government, the FA, AND THE NEWCASTLE FANS all accepted the separation between PIF and KSA, they shouldn't have.

.

FFA

We're told by fans of clubs they would 100% not accept these owners, and sure there may be some, but they'd be surprised at how many of their fellow fans would, even those who had previously stated as fact that they could never. But because it's highly unlikely for it to happen in the same way, they're safely ensconced in their imagined perfection.

On this, sadly, I agree. I can speak categorically for myself, but not for anyone else, and I'm sure we too have a swathe of fans who would put all morals aside, and embrace the riches and glory.

 

[BBassic]

Hans Kraay out here spitting fire

Love to see it.

 

[The Fish]

You supported a takeover? Yes.
How many takeovers were on the table? One
Did you withdraw you support? No
Ergo, you did support THIS takeover. Literally this IS the only logical conclusion. It just more comfortable for you to pretend otherwise.

I guess it comes down to semantics. You want me to say I support the Saudi takeover, because in so doing I'm implicitly supporting the Saudis. This isn't the case. I've said it before the fans, and I include myself, were desperate to see the back of Ashley, desperate. We wanted him out. If any other group had had an offer accepted you would have seen the same fervour for it to go through. You need only look at the way the news was received by us of Kenyon's group, Orleggi group, the other Saudi investor and so on. This proves it didn't matter who the buyer was, it was getting rid of Ashley. Had we still be owned by Sir John Hall there's no way the clamour for change would have been so loud, or the acceptance of this bid so widespread. So it's very clear that the fans weren't clamouring FOR the Saudis, but for the END of Ashley.

It may serve some partisan hunger to paint another fanbase as wholly amoral, but that's just patently untrue. Overwhelmingly the fans are conflicted about the ownership. If you could wave a magic wand and replace PIF with some random investor we'd not be protesting, would we. But we are where we are.

Newcastle fans were faced with two choices - protest the takeover and withdraw their support if it happened, or ignore the unpleasantness and welcome the new owners' boundless wealth and the subsequent sporting glory.

Again, you're reducing a very complex and personal choice for tens of thousands of individuals into a binary state. It's not binary. I'm not ignoring the unpleasantness and I'm not walking away from my club and the part of my life that revolves around it. As I've said people make their own choices, some walk away, some just watch us on tv, some only go to away games, some twats throw on teatowels and act the c-word. It's not A or B, and it's wrong to suggest it is.

You somehow want to revel in the new era on the field, while simultaneously clinging to a pretence that you opposed it on moral grounds.

No, I want to go to the match where I'll see a competent manager have good players, execute a good plan and hopefully see some good football. I can do that while still being totally opposed to the Saudi ownership of the club. As an example of similar cognitive dissonance I can be opposed to the government, be embarrassed by the behaviours of a lot of English people and yet still be a proud Englishman. I can think Amazon are killing small business, treating their staff appallingly and yet be a fully paid up Prime member, enjoying all the benefits thereof.

So ****ing what? You are preaching here to a fanbase that have actually LIVED all that, and worse, and come out the other side with our integrity intact. The size of your fanbase means that however low Ashley took you, you'd always have found a way back.

I'm not preaching, you've lived through decades of mismanagement and doldrums, would you want to again? No, of course not.

The size of our fanbase is only relevant if it remains. Because of the chasm created by Ashley that relevance weakened to breaking point for ten thousand season ticket holders. That's 20% of our capacity, gone. The longer he stayed the greater the chasm became. Without fans, without Premier League money, without saleable assets, without an academy, how exactly would we get out of the shit? We'd need to be as fortunate as yourselves to be rescued by a competent, caring owner with the funds, passion and vision to rebuild us. Those are pretty thin on the ground.

On this, sadly, I agree. I can speak categorically for myself, but not for anyone else, and I'm sure we too have a swathe of fans who would put all morals aside, and embrace the riches and glory.

This is my point, in summation. Every man jack of us made a personal decision when the takeover went through, which landed each of us somewhere on a broad spectrum of positions. So to label all Newcastle fans as amoral, or ruthlessly ambitious is reducing a very complex, entirely subjective issue past that which is reasonable.

Apropos of nothing, I was speaking to a Man City fan at work and he noted that they got none of this shit when they were bought by UAE, there wasn't the awareness of sportswashing I guess. For him the hardest thing now is that the club he watched play a league game against Stockport County was gone. The Man City that he grew up with didn't exist any more. He loves watching the kids come through like Foden, but with the professionalism, the glory, the superstars, also comes distance and a sense of the artificial, the clinical. He wouldn't want to go back where they were, but he's nostalgic for parts of that time. I guess if we go the way our owners plan, the same will happen here.

 

[Mackenzie]

Well at the end of the day it’s happened, I wouldn’t be shouting about it from the rooftops (like Shearer) if it were my club but if they’re conscience can stand it it’s up to them. In a small way it’s a shame, they were always seen as a good club with great passionate fans now that’s been tarnished somewhat, I guess that’s the price they’re paying.

 

[Sea Cider]

"I can think Amazon are killing small business, treating their staff appallingly and yet be a fully paid up Prime member, enjoying all the benefits thereof."

I think the fact that you are trying to use this as an argument to SUPPORT your position on your new owners says it all. You openly and explicitly have absolutely no problem with putting your own pleasure before principles.

 

[Muzzman]

There’s a lot rubbish being spouted in this thread, at the end of the day, Newcastle Utd were bought by Saudi and it seems apparent that not everyone in the world is happy about that fact. Regardless of the convoluted way their fans attempt to justify and support their new owners, they can’t be surprised they find themselves being pushed aside like a piece of gristle. Just glad it’s not the club I support.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

I guess it comes down to semantics. You want me to say I support the Saudi takeover, because in so doing I'm implicitly supporting the Saudis. This isn't the case. I've said it before the fans, and I include myself, were desperate to see the back of Ashley, desperate. We wanted him out. If any other group had had an offer accepted you would have seen the same fervour for it to go through. You need only look at the way the news was received by us of Kenyon's group, Orleggi group, the other Saudi investor and so on. This proves it didn't matter who the buyer was, it was getting rid of Ashley. Had we still be owned by Sir John Hall there's no way the clamour for change would have been so loud, or the acceptance of this bid so widespread. So it's very clear that the fans weren't clamouring FOR the Saudis, but for the END of Ashley.

It may serve some partisan hunger to paint another fanbase as wholly amoral, but that's just patently untrue. Overwhelmingly the fans are conflicted about the ownership. If you could wave a magic wand and replace PIF with some random investor we'd not be protesting, would we. But we are where we are.

Again, you're reducing a very complex and personal choice for tens of thousands of individuals into a binary state. It's not binary. I'm not ignoring the unpleasantness and I'm not walking away from my club and the part of my life that revolves around it. As I've said people make their own choices, some walk away, some just watch us on tv, some only go to away games, some twats throw on teatowels and act the c-word. It's not A or B, and it's wrong to suggest it is.

No, I want to go to the match where I'll see a competent manager have good players, execute a good plan and hopefully see some good football. I can do that while still being totally opposed to the Saudi ownership of the club. As an example of similar cognitive dissonance I can be opposed to the government, be embarrassed by the behaviours of a lot of English people and yet still be a proud Englishman. I can think Amazon are killing small business, treating their staff appallingly and yet be a fully paid up Prime member, enjoying all the benefits thereof.



I'm not preaching, you've lived through decades of mismanagement and doldrums, would you want to again? No, of course not.

The size of our fanbase is only relevant if it remains. Because of the chasm created by Ashley that relevance weakened to breaking point for ten thousand season ticket holders. That's 20% of our capacity, gone. The longer he stayed the greater the chasm became. Without fans, without Premier League money, without saleable assets, without an academy, how exactly would we get out of the shit? We'd need to be as fortunate as yourselves to be rescued by a competent, caring owner with the funds, passion and vision to rebuild us. Those are pretty thin on the ground.


This is my point, in summation. Every man jack of us made a personal decision when the takeover went through, which landed each of us somewhere on a broad spectrum of positions. So to label all Newcastle fans as amoral, or ruthlessly ambitious is reducing a very complex, entirely subjective issue past that which is reasonable.

Apropos of nothing, I was speaking to a Man City fan at work and he noted that they got none of this shit when they were bought by UAE, there wasn't the awareness of sportswashing I guess. For him the hardest thing now is that the club he watched play a league game against Stockport County was gone. The Man City that he grew up with didn't exist any more. He loves watching the kids come through like Foden, but with the professionalism, the glory, the superstars, also comes distance and a sense of the artificial, the clinical. He wouldn't want to go back where they were, but he's nostalgic for parts of that time. I guess if we go the way our owners plan, the same will happen here.

Can't argue with any of that here, to be honest.
I appreciate there ultimately is not a lot you can do, apart from walk away, which is something I could never do from a club I have loved like you yours all my life. Tuff call, and ultimately at the end of the day, they won't reign forever, new owners will at some point take over, but hopefully the club will always continue.

Not every club is lucky enough to have an owner that is local and has the best interests at heart for the club and community.
After all our troubles we deserve that break, but there are not that many wealthy businessmen or women like that all over the country that can take care of their local club.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I guess it comes down to semantics..

No, it doesn't. It comes down to very simple truths.

Truth 1: You were worried for your club's prospects under the previous ownership.
We all understand that - he seems an absolute prick. But the club's existence was not in any threat, in contrast to the apocalyptic future you paint - there was nothing to be gained by Ashley in running the club down - as evidenced by his bank-rolling of two immediate returns to the Premier League.

Truth 2: The only takeover bid, on the table was from the Saudi state, in the guise of PIF
You know who these people are - what their human rights record is, how they treat gay people, what they are doing in Yemen, what they do to dissenting voices. However, you also know how RICH they are, and what glory is in store for any football club they buy.

Truth 3: You (the Newcastle fans, collectively) accepted the takeover - and in fact actively protested when it was held up (for whatever reasons).

I feel for you - it is a genuinely difficult position to have been put in, but really that is all there is.

 

[The Fish]

Can't argue with any of that here, to be honest.
I appreciate there ultimately is not a lot you can do, apart from walk away, which is something I could never do from a club I have loved like you yours all my life. Tuff call, and ultimately at the end of the day, they won't reign forever, new owners will at some point take over, but hopefully the club will always continue.

Not every club is lucky enough to have an owner that is local and has the best interests at heart for the club and community.
After all our troubles we deserve that break, but there are not that many wealthy businessmen or women like that all over the country that can take care of their local club.

That's another part of this. I've been really aware of 4 ownership eras, Sir John Hall, Shepherd (although Hall family still represented), Ashley and now the Saudis. I was supporting Newcastle before they were in place and will likely be here after they've gone. I can't see the Saudis going anywhere (unless they become persona non-grata as the Russians are now) for a long time.

It would have been great if a secret Byker Billionaire was knocking about, but unfortunately Sting is probably our richest 'fan', and he doesn't strike me as a shrewd football operator anyway.

 

[Munkfish]

HKFC - Smoke me a kipper i'll be back for breakfast... What a guy.

Brilliant to read.

 

[The Fish]

No, it doesn't. It comes down to very simple truths.

Truth 1: You were worried for your club's prospects under the previous ownership.
We all understand that - he seems an absolute prick. But the club's existence was not in any threat, in contrast to the apocalyptic future you paint - there was nothing to be gained by Ashley in running the club down - as evidenced by his bank-rolling of two immediate returns to the Premier League.

Truth 2: The only takeover bid, on the table was from the Saudi state, in the guise of PIF
You know who these people are - what their human rights record is, how they treat gay people, what they are doing in Yemen, what they do to dissenting voices. However, you also know how RICH they are, and what glory is in store for any football club they buy.

Truth 3: You (the Newcastle fans, collectively) accepted the takeover - and in fact actively protested when it was held up (for whatever reasons).

I feel for you - it is a genuinely difficult position to have been put in, but really that is all there is.

Orrrrr

Truth 1. Most Newcastle fans were desperate to get rid of Ashley
Truth 2. Any accepted bidder that got through the O&D test would be welcomed by the fans.

My club is just the latest victim of late stage capitalism encroaching into cultural touchstones.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Orrrrr

Truth 1. Most Newcastle fans were desperate to get rid of Ashley
Truth 2. Any accepted bidder that got through the O&D test would be welcomed by the fans.

My club is just the latest victim of late stage capitalism encroaching into cultural touchstones.

Thanks.

So, in summary: even misogynistic, homophobic, war-mongering murderers* are preferable to smug, tight Southerners, as long as they pass an arbitrary set of regulations that everybody knows are unfit for purpose?

*as long as they are filthy RICH, obviously.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Thanks.

So, in summary: even misogynistic, homophobic, war-mongering murderers* are preferable to smug, tight Southerners, as long as the pass an arbitrary set of regulations that everybody knows are unfit for purpose?

*as long as they are filthy RICH, obviously.

I think you have summed it up well there.

 

[Kosh]

Most of the Newcastle fans I know, and I know many and play football with many... they couldn’t give a shit... they just want to win at any cost: financial or to humanity - it’s seemingly irrelevant.

Some quipped that they’d be willing to sell to the devil himself to remove Ashley - and thus they did. Blinded by hate for one man, they’ve destroyed the moral fabric of their club - it’s proud heritage sold out and washed up.

I asked one: “how would you have felt if Sir John Hall had still owned the club and opted for this deal?” - they couldn’t answer as I know and they know that he would have been slaughtered/castigated for it.

It would never have been allowed, by the fans, to happen.

This happened through blind hatred of one man, and pots of blood money.

 

[Bodian]

I guess it comes down to semantics. You want me to say I support the Saudi takeover, because in so doing I'm implicitly supporting the Saudis. This isn't the case. I've said it before the fans, and I include myself, were desperate to see the back of Ashley, desperate. We wanted him out. If any other group had had an offer accepted you would have seen the same fervour for it to go through. You need only look at the way the news was received by us of Kenyon's group, Orleggi group, the other Saudi investor and so on. This proves it didn't matter who the buyer was, it was getting rid of Ashley. Had we still be owned by Sir John Hall there's no way the clamour for change would have been so loud, or the acceptance of this bid so widespread. So it's very clear that the fans weren't clamouring FOR the Saudis, but for the END of Ashley.

So, now you have got rid of Ashley, and you say that you didn't want the Saudis. Can I ask what you and fellow Newcastle fans are doing to try and get rid of the Saudis, as I assume you are wishing rid of them?

 

[Weststander]

Heads will roll in Jeddah for that result, after being held at home by the lowest budget EPL club.