police dealing with incident on London bridge.,

[GT49er]

Which means those supporting ISIS would just start using the standard flag.

Then they wouldn't be breaking the law.

 

[Triggaaar]

So is anger is the difference then?

It's not just those who are angry, people that are targeted for radicalisation are often lonely or feel out of touch with our society, so groups can make them feel like they belong etc.

That’s what differentiates one Muslim who doesn’t blow himself up from one Muslim who does blow himself up?

I'm sure there are many factors. Some may be identified and radicalised, others may go looking for the cause.

If so why are they angry?

Many young people get angry, we can't stop that. Whether the recruits are angry with the world (particularly the west) or lonely and looking for people who seem to understand them, the key for me is that they believe in Allah, so when they're shown texts of Allah's word saying to kill people, they can be fooled into thinking it's the right thing to do. There are plenty of young and angry or lonely atheists, but it's pretty tricky persuading them to blow themselves up, as they know they won't be getting a truck load of virgins for doing so.

 

[Triggaaar]

Then they wouldn't be breaking the law.

Indeed, so we can't arrest them. But they will be waving their flag in support of ISIS, and based on the circumstances around their march/protest/whatever, everyone will know what their point is. So they'll carry on as now, and we won't be able to do anything.

 

[GT49er]

Indeed, so we can't arrest them. But they will be waving their flag in support of ISIS, and based on the circumstances around their march/protest/whatever, everyone will know what their point is. So they'll carry on as now, and we won't be able to do anything.

Fine, we'll not bother trying anything then.

 

[Triggaaar]

Fine, we'll not bother trying anything then.

So if I'm not sure you're first idea is the best way forward, then we have to give up? Come on GT, don't be a baby. I just don't think banning flags will solve our problems.

I'd like more time spent analysing the Quran, and openly discussing whether Allah really is calling for non believers to be killed, and if so, whether Muslims accept this as the word of god, or reject it. If it is not the religion of peace, let's not pretend that it is.

 

[symyjym]

It's a good question. If you believe the bible is truly the word of god, then why the hell shouldn't Christians still do those things?

We want a solution to the problem of radicalising Muslims. It seems to me that the Quran really does call for the murder of non Muslims, so when you have a large number of devout Muslims, it can't be difficult to call on them to do what god asks them to do. If Christian priests can believe in god, but accept that the bible is not correct, then can the same happen for Muslims (re the Quran)?

The Old and New Testament are inspired by God but written by man. The Quran is Allah’s exact words and where the Quran gives a different detail to a story they will say it’s because the Bibles have been corrupted by man and the Quran has come to correct it.

 

[pb21]

It's not just those who are angry, people that are targeted for radicalisation are often lonely or feel out of touch with our society, so groups can make them feel like they belong etc.

I'm sure there are many factors. Some may be identified and radicalised, others may go looking for the cause.

Many young people get angry, we can't stop that. Whether the recruits are angry with the world (particularly the west) or lonely and looking for people who seem to understand them, the key for me is that they believe in Allah, so when they're shown texts of Allah's word saying to kill people, they can be fooled into thinking it's the right thing to do. There are plenty of young and angry or lonely atheists, but it's pretty tricky persuading them to blow themselves up, as they know they won't be getting a truck load of virgins for doing so.

It just sounds like a hopeless situation.

Some Muslims are so angry and disenfranchised etc. that some other Muslims (presumably once young and angry) telling them the Quran says killing non-Muslims is the right thing to do, means they go and do it.

You aren’t quickly going to change people’s belief that the Quran isn’t the word of God but made up bollox.

You can’t change the words in the Quran and it would be very hard/impossible/illegal to stop people talking about the Quran. Should it be illegal to talk about the fact the Quran says that non-believers should be crucified? I guess if the talking about this was in the context of promoting idea this then it should be, but I assume it is?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Whatever you think of Millwall fans, this bloke is a hero. Forget talking about the murderers, lets talk about those who helped.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/london-bridge-hero-knifed-five-10562830

[tweet]871738522427940864[/tweet]

https://twitter.com/AgainstLeague3/status/871738522427940864

 

[symyjym]

It's not about "when inconvenient". It's when new Testament ideas and concepts contradict the Old Testament teaching.

There is plenty in the Old Testament which the New Testament (Jesus) endorses - things about Justice, about being kind, fair, looking after those who can not look after themselves, charity.

But when Jesus came proclaiming (not that he did in necessarily that loudly) himself as the Son of God, plenty of Jews at the time would have been expecting/hoping for a warrior king to lead them out of Roman oppression. They got something very, very different.

And going back to the Book of revelation, which is what started this off, if you read it (which I have from beginning to end), it struck me as something which might make a good film, but would need something of a Harry Potter style special effects unit to carry it off.

You have missed my point that God ordered Moses to slaughter all the men, boys and female non virgins from the Midianite tribe. Christians say that Jesus is God. How you get around this. Do you claim the Old Testament is just a book of stories and Jesus the God is a different God in the Old Testament and they are not directly connected?

 

[Triggaaar]

It just sounds like a hopeless situation.

It is a bit of a mess.

Some Muslims are so angry and disenfranchised etc. that some other Muslims (presumably once young and angry) telling them the Quran says killing non-Muslims is the right thing to do, means they go and do it.

Pretty much.

You can’t change the words in the Quran and it would be very hard/impossible/illegal to stop people talking about the Quran. Should it be illegal to talk about the fact the Quran says that non-believers should be crucified?

I think that would be a mistake, and is almost what's happening now. I think that the many decent law abiding Muslims are turning a blind eye to the terrible words in their book. As I've said above, if the Quran does say as I think it does, that should be out in the open and Muslims should try and defend it or reject it. I don't think it can be defended, and Muslims should reject it. If a person wants to say that's it's ok to kill non believers, that is unacceptable IMO. Maybe that could be against the law (I haven't put any thought into it).

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Fine, we'll not bother trying anything then.

His love for playing devil's advocate is quite draining sometimes

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[Triggaaar]

The Old and New Testament are inspired by God but written by man. The Quran is Allah’s exact words and where the Quran gives a different detail to a story they will say it’s because the Bibles have been corrupted by man and the Quran has come to correct it.

I don't think that's correct. A little reading on the subject suggests that near the time of Christ it was believed that the Old Testament was the word of god, and the text in both Old and New claim "God said" or "Thus says the Lord" thousands of times.

That is not what most Christians now believe, most believe the writers were fallible men who struggled to explain deep spiritual truths.

So while Muslims believe the Quran is the actual word of god, that doesn't mean they will always believe that.

 

[Triggaaar]

His love for playing devil's advocate is quite draining sometimes

So you think banning flags is the answer then?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

So you think banning flags is the answer then?

I said crackdown on their propaganda and support, whether that be online or protesting on the streets with their flags, so yes banning the flag wouldn't do any harm, little by little there's a chance we can beat them, just like the nazi's

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[symyjym]

I don't think that's correct. A little reading on the subject suggests that near the time of Christ it was believed that the Old Testament was the word of god, and the text in both Old and New claim "God said" or "Thus says the Lord" thousands of times.

That is not what most Christians now believe, most believe the writers were fallible men who struggled to explain deep spiritual truths.

So while Muslims believe the Quran is the actual word of god, that doesn't mean they will always believe that.

I was giving the current accepted view by Christians. If I said Christians believe their books are the words of God I would have been wrong as well wouldn't I?

Believing the Quran is the word of Allah is a condition to being Muslim. If they don't believe this they are ex Muslim.

 

[pb21]

I said crackdown on their propaganda and support, whether that be online or protesting on the streets with their flags, so yes banning the flag wouldn't do any harm, little by little there's a chance we can beat them, just like the nazi's

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Is cracking down on their propaganda not their propaganda though?

These people attract other people by saying “look at how bad off you are, it’s because you aren’t allowed to follow the Quran, look we aren’t even allowed a flag, join us”.

Maybe this is the right/best approach in the long term and overall, though I can only see it being counterproductive in the short-term.

 

[pigbite]

Or to put it in a non-patronising non-derogatory way, they advocate not actually doing the crap parts of the Old Testament.

I wouldn't say they advocate not actually doing the crap bits. I would say they choose to ignore the crap bits as having nothing to do with Christianity yet maintain the whole thing is still the Word of God. Patronising it may be but after spending years fighting, what I know now to be, cognitive dissonance over these kind of logical rabbit holes whilst being a True Believer (TM), I find it pretty staggering that there are still loads of people around who seem to think that Jesus, groovy as he seems be, is some kind of hero for working out what most tiny kids instinctively know - that being a good person is a pretty good base from which to build your life. That is until those kids get turned in hate and prejudice filled clones of their parents of course.

Either way, I am happy that the vast majority of Christians do choose to ignore large portions of the Bible as it means we get to live in an increasingly secular and progressive society. I just wish there were more secular and progressive Muslims that actively chose to ignore vast portions of the Quran as well.

 

[pigbite]

Believing the Quran is the word of Allah is a condition to being Muslim. If they don't believe this they are ex Muslim.

And in some places, the equivalent of signing your own death note.

 

[Triggaaar]

I was giving the current accepted view by Christians. If I said Christians believe their books are the words of God I would have been wrong as well wouldn't I?

I'm not trying to argue with you, just establish the facts. Some Christians still believe the Bible is the actual word of god. Most, I think, don't.

Believing the Quran is the word of Allah is a condition to being Muslim. If they don't believe this they are ex Muslim.

That may have been true for Christians too at one point. Things change. Islam may need to change.

 

[Triggaaar]

I said crackdown on their propaganda and support, whether that be online or protesting on the streets with their flags, so yes banning the flag wouldn't do any harm, little by little there's a chance we can beat them, just like the nazi's

I've no problem with that, but this is also a fair point:

Is cracking down on their propaganda not their propaganda though?

These people attract other people by saying “look at how bad off you are, it’s because you aren’t allowed to follow the Quran, look we aren’t even allowed a flag, join us”.

Maybe this is the right/best approach in the long term and overall, though I can only see it being counterproductive in the short-term.