Nigel Farage MEP v Russell Brand - Question Time BBC1 22:35 *** Official Match Thread ***

[5mins-from-amex]

The media and the companies that control them have managed to convince the less intelligent sections of British society that the problems is immigration.

Is that a little dig at what you perceive to be the working classes?

 

[Dub-67]

Is that a little dig at what you perceive to be the working classes?

Nope, I'm working class.

Less intelligent people occur right across the class spectrum.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes I do. The Murdoch Press serves this agenda. You are naive if you think these people do not want to maintain their wealth and power at any cost.

I'm assuming you've ordered your tinfoil hat for Christmas ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Nope, I'm working class.

Less intelligent people occur right across the class spectrum.

So what makes you working class then ?

 

[pb21]

You can quote Brand as much as you like - he didn't come out with a single suggestion on how to solve this country's problems. In fact when challenged to actually do something about it and stand, he became sheepish and defensive. If you're going to continually moan about how the system works, and you have the public window to deal with it, then stand up and deal with it. Brand can't and won't. Let's remember he advocates not voting ..... oh yes Russell, that will help !

Brand is pointing out an issue, no more than that, and a correct one IMO: rich, powerful, corrupt and aspects of society that work only in there favour which is largely not in the favour of the vast majority. If you want to look for ways for what to do about it some starting with some Chomsky would prove useful.

 

[spring hall convert]

Sweeping, yea but based on discussions on this very board. Most people (including myself) are set in a way of thinking and when the other side presents evidence to suggest that their assumptions or views maybe misguided they either ignore the evidence or try to discredit it. In the summer there was a program about immigration that showed statistically immigrants has little effect on the NHS (immigrants are statistically less likely to use the facilities provided)
, schools, welfare, unemployment and the economy. When this evidence was presented on NSC those who are anti immigration discredited it left right and centre because it put into question their view on the matter. It's not a left vs right issues, it's purely human nature. We were all saying before QT even aired that UKIpers would agree with whatever Farage said and "lefties" would agree with what Brand said and no one's opinion would really be changed.

As for my point about unemployment their are many factors as to why people can't find work but unemployment will happen regardless of immigration. It's not as simple as one immigrant gets a job so one british person loses out. The job market just doesn't work that way.

The problem with this debate is the two sides are talking at cross purposes and no one listens to each other. The viewpoints that immigration to this country is a benefit to GDP and that uncontrolled immigration has had a negative impact on the living standards of the traditional metropolitan working class are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to believe both are true.

 

[daveinprague]

And yet it only makes the Daily Mail's fifth subheading on the subject ..... oh yes Dave, people are really going to remember it and it will stick .... only you really.

Yeah, thats about right, as im the only person who commented on it....

 

[5mins-from-amex]

Nope, I'm working class.

Less intelligent people occur right across the class spectrum.

Good point, but I believe that the media and the companies that control them have managed to convince the less intelligent sections of British society that the problems have nothing to do with immigration.

 

[Dub-67]

So what makes you working class then ?

Er.... being born into a working class family on a council housing estate?

 

[Hastings gull]

I've quoted just this one bit, because I think it's typical of the perception a lot of people have.

This is from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

They are not a left/right pro/anti establishment. When they publish research it has to be able to stand up to criticism and analysis.

I am sure that they stand up to criticism and as far as EU immigrants are concerned, then they are presumably right. However, this report, as you may know, has been roundly criticised, as it takes no account of the stresses on the infrastructure. Whilst immigrants working will undoubtedly have a positive effect, it does not state the consequences of them not working! Also, it does not mention non EU immigrants at all, which I think probably worries folk more, due to its implications for social cohesion. Also, it has since emerged that the chap was the same one who told us that 13,000 Poles would come here . . In the event 700,000 arrived! Don't be so believing of "studies".

 

[daveinprague]

Maybe Dave but it was hardly the shattering blow to Farage some are making out. All in all I was disappointed in the event

It didnt move me either tbh

 

[daveinprague]

So what makes you working class then ?

Is it a quiz? Having a job?

 

[Hastings gull]

I introduced the left vs right notion to emphasise that the evasion of evidence wasn't political it was merely human. With the indication being that with political based threads such as these often become a case of left vs right. Of course statistics can be used to perpetuate any point of view but statistically speaking it goes to show that immigration isn't as big of an issue as people believe. Of course statistics don't apply to the indivual so there are, unfortunately, parts of the country where the strain is more telling on infrastructure. I reiterate my point on unemployment; immigration may be a factor (increased population size, more people applying for the same job etc) but I do not believe it to be the root cause or even the main cause of unemployment. I have no evidence to hand to back this theory up, just as people on the opposite side have no evidence to back up that immigration is the main cause for unemployment. But it stands to reason that the job market is an ever changing infrastructure that demands different skill sets at different times. As we've said there are many factors and immigration is perhaps one of them. Maybe this is because they are willing to do jobs others see as beneath them, low paid or because they willing to travel to parts of the country where the job market is currently lucrative. A factor yes, but take immigration away and give all jobs to British workers and unemployment will still remain as it not the sole cause as some people suggest.

Many thanks again. Bang on, in my view, I can not disagree with this at all. I don't mean to be pompous -honestly -but you are at your best when you avoid sweeping statements.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Er.... being born into a working class family on a council housing estate?

So define working class then ? My father-in-law was born and brought up on a council estate and ended up a top engineer for Kodak. So what class is he then ? Those than bang on about class are those living in the 1920's.

 

[Dub-67]

Good point, but I believe that the media and the companies that control them have managed to convince the less intelligent sections of British society that the problems have nothing to do with immigration.

really?

http://www.voxeurop.eu/files/sun.png

http://www.politicshome.com/images/1.1.Front_Pages/express_19711.jpg
http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/star-racism.jpg

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Is it a quiz? Having a job?

Indeed - an impossible quiz given nobody can possibly define what a working class is ( beyond your correct answer of having a job ! ).

 

[pb21]

You don't seriously think that there is an inner ring of plotters sitting in a dark corner avoiding their taxes and agreeing to blame immigrants, do you? Your first sentence is really quite absurd - there is no obvious direct link, other than you want to see one, as it coincides with your bias. Immigration is not a diversion for many many people who fear for social cohesion in the future, if it is allowed to go unchecked. 40,000 people voted for UKIP in the three recent by-elections, rightly or wrongly - for them I think it is fair to claim that it is not a diversion as you so irresponsibly claim.

I don't think its that sinister. The powerful and rich have existed far longer than immigration being in the news. These are ideas thoughts and expectations that have grown over centuries. Its not as obvious as rich tax avoiders plotting to blame immigrants. Its much more subtle and pervasive than that. Its the culture and society that we live in that has been molded, however intentionally or not, to suit certain aspects of it by those very same aspects.

 

[Dub-67]

Indeed - an impossible quiz given nobody can possibly define what a working class is ( beyond your correct answer of having a job ! ).

Not that hard to define really;

"The working class is the class of people employed for wages, especially in manual or industrial work. Working-class jobs include blue-collar jobs, but also include large amounts of white-collar and service work."

 

[Westdene Seagull]

really?

http://www.voxeurop.eu/files/sun.png

http://www.politicshome.com/images/1.1.Front_Pages/express_19711.jpg
http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/star-racism.jpg

So front pages of tat papers - and in 2011 and 2013 - are evidence now are they ? Couldn't spot the date on the last link as Dani distracted me

 

[spring hall convert]

I agree, for me Brand has jumped on this bandwagon purely for self serving reasons and to shift a few more copies of his latest dvd and book. It is to get his name out there and after all with Xmas 2 weeks away was a great opportunity to generate sales for his " revolution " book. I am quite surprised he did not bring out a copy last night

Even if you are right, which I don't actually think you are, so what?

Why does it take a self-serving, supposed comedian to be sticking up for the residents of The New Era estate? Shouldn't someone else be doing that?

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...e-russell-brand-protest-against-eviction-live

The irony of this argument, is it comes from the lazy, complacent, establishment that are more than happy to chuck our money away on the "right" type of champagne.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...t-look-at-their-champagne-budget-9910611.html

It would be a hell of a lot easier for him to sit in his ivory tower, count his money and not give a ****.